The Banhammer

Tiel wrote:

Avenger_7 wrote:

Tiel, we do not live in a utopia, we live in a world dominated by morons. I don't see how you haven't realized that.

Now, I happen to be a full-fledged political anarchist. The only advantage that I see for 'civilized' society is the development of technology. However, I'm not naive enough to believe that humanity could survive without inequality and that we would all help each other without some form of hierarchy. The same goes for minecraft. Because humans are, at our core, self-obsessed jackasses, we need some sort of moderation so one person with a strong server doesn't get an unstoppable fleet of dongs that flies around raping everything(pun intended).

Personally, I'd rather have someone sensible enforcing things than some random dick who makes 'your mom' jokes all day and destroys your world if you don't laugh.

Have you ever been on a Minecraft anarchy server? It balances itself. I'd much rather have a fleet of dongs destroy my world then have a supposedly moderator faction destroy me because I did something they don't like. It only opens up the game to power abuse, which is not fun for the players.

Yes, I have. All my stuff got 'sploded. If you want to have fun getting all your work destroys simply because it's there, then go ahead. I'll bring my creative-made dreadnought and blow up your world every time I'm online, simply because there's no one to stop me. I guarantee you'd stop playing within a month.

*that's an example, I'm not a griefer. But there are a LOT of them out there.

Mod powers won't give nearly the advantage creative mode/WorldEdit will.

Futurecraft isn't a normal PvP environment, you're risking a ship you have spent hours working on. And in survival, probably days.

Worldedit nor Creative Mode will be in Futurecraft, so I don't know what the f*** you're going on about. If it's hacks, I said in my post before these can be handled on the backend without an moderator force. And people WILL attack you, that's the whole premise of this mod. Having moderators help them or even stop you from counter-attacking will make you quit even faster.

Tiel wrote:

Worldedit nor Creative Mode will be in Futurecraft, so I don't know what the f*** you're going on about. If it's hacks, I said in my post before these can be handled on the backend without an moderator force. And people WILL attack you, that's the whole premise of this mod. Having moderators help them or even stop you from counter-attacking will make you quit even faster.

A) Good thing you aren't a dev. If this gets handled on the backed, you lose 90% of your potential player base.
B) MCEdit can put the ships from creative onto the map regardless (my plan)
C) You've contradicted yourself by saying that mods shouldn't have any power but if someone gets an equivalent authority through general douchebaggery it's alright.

And to answer your earlier question, the statement about my politics (that you didn't read into at all) basically said "I like the concept, but it won't work".

Avenger_7 wrote:

Tiel wrote:

Worldedit nor Creative Mode will be in Futurecraft, so I don't know what the f*** you're going on about. If it's hacks, I said in my post before these can be handled on the backend without an moderator force. And people WILL attack you, that's the whole premise of this mod. Having moderators help them or even stop you from counter-attacking will make you quit even faster.

A) You aren't a dev
B) MCEdit can put the ships from creative onto the map regardless (my plan)
C) You've contradicted yourself by saying that mods shouldn't have any power but if someone gets an equivalent authority through general douchebaggery it's alright.

1&2) It's been said multiple times that there will be no MCEdit or Creative mode. Try searching.
3) I'm saying there shouldn't be any mods period. If someone gets some great ships, good on them, because they earned them, unlike the moderator concept being tossed around.

Also worth noting: There will be no MCEdit. Instead one will import ships into a shipyard and provided they have the proper materials, get the vessel. I'm not confident what'll be done about naughty server admins, but either way it'd be difficult to discern between man-made and artificial. One thing I saw being discussed in an earlier thread about 3 months back was that server owners would have to be approved in order to have access to Futurecraft and subsequently host. Sorta like Project Reality.

Take Battlestar Galactica Online, for instance, which has no moderation outside of a chat filter. Now take the cubits out of the equation and that's ideally what Futurecraft should be like, administration-wise, anyway. The game itself should enforce whatever loose rules the FC mod puts in place, but I am vehemently opposed to any moderation team intruding on battles. If someone overpowers you, start over. That's the way it should be played, as they've probably been playing longer than you. Perhaps some sort of barrier where higher civilizations can't enter another solar system (server) where interstellar travel hasn't taken root yet.

Irregardless, you said yourself that humans are selfish douches, what will make the moderators any different? I don't know about you, but personally I don't want to risk abuse of any powers bestowed on them to ensure my gameplay is unaffected and fun. You win some, you lose some, but losing due to a snobby moderator is just unacceptable.

Also, I will not stoop to your level as far as your veiled insults are concerned. Carry on a mature debate or simply don't post at all.

Tiel wrote:

Avenger_7 wrote:

Tiel wrote:

Worldedit nor Creative Mode will be in Futurecraft, so I don't know what the f*** you're going on about. If it's hacks, I said in my post before these can be handled on the backend without an moderator force. And people WILL attack you, that's the whole premise of this mod. Having moderators help them or even stop you from counter-attacking will make you quit even faster.

A) You aren't a dev
B) MCEdit can put the ships from creative onto the map regardless (my plan)
C) You've contradicted yourself by saying that mods shouldn't have any power but if someone gets an equivalent authority through general douchebaggery it's alright.

1&2) It's been said multiple times that there will be no MCEdit or Creative mode. Try searching.
3) I'm saying there shouldn't be any mods period. If someone gets some great ships, good on them, because they earned them, unlike the moderator concept being tossed around.

Also worth noting: There will be no MCEdit. Instead one will import ships into a shipyard and provided they have the proper materials, get the vessel. I'm not confident what'll be done about naughty server admins, but either way it'd be difficult to discern between man-made and artificial. One thing I saw being discussed in an earlier thread about 3 months back was that server owners would have to be approved in order to have access to Futurecraft and subsequently host. Sorta like Project Reality.

I won't stoop to your level. Take Battlestar Galactica Online, for instance, which has no moderation outside of a chat filter. Now take the cubits out of the equation and that's ideally what Futurecraft should be like, administration-wise, anyway. The game itself should enforce whatever loose rules the FC mod puts in place, but I am vehemently opposed to any moderation team intruding on battles. If someone overpowers you, start over. That's the way it should be played, as they've probably been playing longer than you. Perhaps some sort of barrier where higher civilizations can't enter another solar system (server) where interstellar travel hasn't taken root yet.

Irregardless, you said yourself that humans are selfish douches, what will make the moderators any different? I don't know about you, but personally I don't want to risk abuse of any powers bestowed on them to ensure my gameplay is unaffected and fun. You win some, you lose some, but losing due to a snobby moderator is just unacceptable.

Bsg online works because you have two organized and equal factions, not several disorganized and unbalanced ones. If someone goes seal clubbing, someone will show up to protect the little guys. In your version of FC, they're just as likely to join the party.

The thing about the mods is that they would be mainly drawn from the dev team. This way, you get a team of people who care about the success of the mod. An alternate approach would be to have two equal strength mod factions that would help keep the other in check. This is slightly more like BSGO, and the idea that I like the most.

You can't stop people from modifying their level.dat. Even if you lock it, hide it, and encrypt it, someone will find a way. And then they'll either give themselves all the resources they need to build a ship via the shipyards, or simply access it with MCEdit.

I'll break this into three cases:

Case A: Guy steals credit cards or some such, or starts stalking children.

Response A: Ban and report.

Case B: Guy runs around with fleet of dicks beating everything.

Response B: (THE PROBLEM) Do we want to see what happens? I mean, we can't just ban him, he built his ships, he can use them. In real life, people would band together, maybe in a feudal system. But this is the internet. We are a community of jerks, intelligent people, and 7 year olds. The first and last outnumber the second. We wouldn't fight back, we would whine to the moderators. And the moderators could either ban people for what they did legally, or let a bunch of people leave. Instead, I think we need the option of a safe, moderator controlled environment. Now, don't get me wrong, it would be dumb. But at least we could put all the whiners together. Think the "Survival PVP NO FACTIONS HARDCORE" server vs the "Stalemated server"

Hmmm. An analogy would be Fuzzycraft was the main galaxy. It has the epic moments, the big fights, etc. Altera would be the second. We have factions, but they don't fight, and we add some npc ships they can blow up.

In the first galaxy, we say "Okay, you have a galactic empire. Whatcha gonna do about it?"
In the second we ban the guy from the stalemated servers, only let him on Hardcore servers, where he will be good. Then we let those servers backdate.

Case C: Guy beats planet, Urist McWhinyhead whines to moderators about it.

Response C: "Tough luck, sorry."



And about the map.dat, that gets a ban.

I don't think you're understanding the two options here.

There's Mackeroth's grand plan of having the moderator fleet be a wing of his regime, the Banhammer his OP flagship, or simply let the playerbase create their own norms, backed by intricacies in the modified engine.

As far as the level.dat thing is concerned, I said in my post that a prospect was to simply not distribute the Futurecraft jar freely, instead admins would submit applications to host their own solar system. Seeing as all of these solar systems would have to tie into the main server, this would be for the best. Stupid n00b admins would be automatically disqualified, and there'd be nothing stopping a dev from checking in once and a while to see how things are progressing for them.

Seeing as this application process would cull the flow of solar systems (servers) connecting to the Futurecraftverse, it would be feasible to only make the original developers 'admins' of a sort, with the ability to travel to the different servers regardless of whether they have a gate or not, and have the ability to disconnect a server from the Futurecraftverse if they find something suspicious, but that's it.

As for imba battles, when a solar system (server) is first generated, its people start off primitive and gradually work their way up to building spacecraft and exploring worlds in their system. Until they build a Gate, they are isolated. No one can come in the solar system save for the dev-admins, and none can go out, either. Now, when they choose to construct a Gate, which will function similar to a Mass Relay or StarGate and will be costly to construct. When it's finished, they can then travel to the other Solar Systems, but foreign ships can travel to their system in turn.

I think the above would work fairly well, as you and I both know faction wars well, it'd seem. Even before they construct a gate, battles will be fought in their very own solar system until one achieves dominance and builds one. As far as factions go, I believe something similar to the Factions plugin should be integrated into Futurecraft. Any player can start a faction, but without land protection and such. With only the leader in it, the faction will eventually decay and cease to exist. However, if it gains new members, at least 5 plus the leader, the faction is permanent throughout the ages.


e: Not referring to you Keon, you ninja'd me. But nice post.

Tiel wrote:

I don't think you're understanding the two options here.

I don't think you are understanding my other option either.

There's Mackeroth's grand plan of having the moderator fleet be a wing of his regime, the Banhammer is OP flagship, or simply let the playerbase create their own norms, backed by intricacies in the modified engines.

Mackeroth's plan won't work, agreed. Your plan won't work either, because people will just whine about it and then somebody will do something that crosses a line and we will need to interfere.

As far as the level.dat thing is concerned, I said in my post that a prospect was to simply not distribute the Futurecraft jar freely, instead admins would submit applications to host their own solar system. Seeing as all of these solar systems would have to tie into the main server, this would be for the best. Stupid n00b admins would be automatically disqualified, and there'd be nothing stopping a dev from checking in once and a while to see how things are progressing for them.

Yeah.

Seeing as this application process would cull the flow of solar systems (servers) connecting to the Futurecraftverse, it would be feasible to only make the original developers 'admins' of a sort, with the ability to travel to the different servers regardless of whether they have a gate or not, and have the ability to disconnect a server from the Futurecraftverse if they find something suspicious, but that's it.

Yeah.

As for imba battles, when a solar system (server) is first generated, its people start off primitive and gradually work their way up to building spacecraft and exploring worlds in their system. Until they build a Gate, they are isolated. No one can come in the solar system save for the dev-admins, and none can go out, either. Now, when they choose to construct a Gate, which will function similar to a Mass Relay or StarGate and will be costly to construct. When it's finished, they can then travel to the other Solar Systems, but foreign ships can travel to their system in turn.

So what's to stop me from mining to make 70000 ships and then a stargate?

I think the above would work fairly well, as you and I both know faction wars well, it'd seem. Even before they construct a gate, battles will be fought in their very own solar system until one achieves dominance and builds one. As far as factions go, I believe something similar to the Factions plugin should be integrated into Futurecraft. Any player can start a faction, but without land protection and such. With only the leader in it, the faction will eventually decay and cease to exist. However, if it gains new members, at least 5 plus the leader, the faction is permanent throughout the ages.

e: Not referring to you Keon, you ninja'd me. But nice post.

You mean this was all directed at Avenger? COME ON I WROTE THIS ALL OUT!

Anyways, I just thought of a problem. Massing ships then building a stargate. Somehow, stargates need to come after 10 days or so.

And yes, I know it wasn't directed at me. But I spent a lot of time on it so what the heck.

The resources in your miniscule solar system is going to stop you from making 7000 ships, never mind internal conflict.

And if people whine, let them. They don't belong in this mod if they're going to b***h about anything and everything. I get a little mad when I'm murdered by a level 60 player in MW2 when I'm but a lv9, but that doesn't justify me going on their forum and start whining about how everything is overpowered.

Honestly, it's a game. And people need to realize that. And define, "crossing the line". Everyone who was on Solaris knew how frustrating it was not to be able to wage war, a 'safe moderated environment' is only going to compound that with so many possible targets. If someone gets annihilated, it'll be because they were inefficient or unprepared. But they can start over and regenerate a new solar system on that server if they so please, or form an alliance with a more powerful faction and get revenge.

The key here is to not accommodate the uncooperative whiner, but rather make things so difficult if one doesn't learn to work with other people that that type of behavior is self-destructive. Too long have I watched perfectly good games and minecraft servers go to waste due to that kind of mindset.

Tiel wrote:

But they can start over and regenerate a new solar system on that server if they so please, or form an alliance with a more powerful faction and get revenge.

That's a problem. They got conquered. They would be assimilated into the other server, would they not?

Keon wrote:

Anyways, I just thought of a problem. Massing ships then building a stargate. Somehow, stargates need to come after 10 days or so.

Easy fix? Limit the tech tree until Stargate is built. Although honestly, I see no problem with massing ships and then building a Stargate but there needs to be a time limit that varies based on the size of the server. This way, you get everyone coming in at a reasonable strength. Factions will undoubtedly arise on their own, but I strongly believe that they need something like the BH or a comparable dreadnought to serve as a flagship. Kind of like Peggy and the Basestar from BSGO. The faction, once formed, could assign a 'capital world' that is invincible for X amount of time or until it has reached a certain level of development, and could also serve as the construction site for their flagship until it has its unique, uncraftable core installed. Make sense?

When a server gets conquered, the winning fleet would get its resources and the world would be regenerated at a location closer to whichever capital they swear allegiance to.

E: One thing to make clear, a server hosts a solar system. This way isolated servers can still enjoy the wonder that is Futurecraft without plunging into galaxy-wide conflict. The world that players spawn on first is the solar system's "homeworld", where everyone who doesn't have their home set via bed or faction will spawn. While you can join/create factions on your beginning server/solar system, you can probably also hitch a ride on transports headed to another system and subsequently join one of its registered factions.


Well, yes, they could either choose to submit to the invaders in order to save their constructions, or fight to the bitter end until their faction points run out, at which point that solar system will be transferred to the conquerer's serverbox, of course inducing new stress on it, meaning these conquerers can only subjugate a certain number of systems by wiping everyone out, then they must seek more...conservative methods of gaining new land such as offering treaties, assimilating the conquered, etc. Perhaps this will also mean new factions entering the game will know to keep their 'genocide cards' close to themselves, instead doing the aforementioned while only committing widespread slaughter when absolutely necessary.

Now, you're probably thinking, "Well, wouldn't this mean we'd only have a handful of uber factions?" The answer, is yes. And this is good, as these factions will wage war against one another, recruiting smaller factions for assistance. The result is a perpetual state of war, which is ideal for what I think Futurecraft is achieving (There is, after all, only one use for the battleships people have been constructing) In the end, these ubers may fracture into several factions, which will then form alliances and create new ubers, and so forth. Alliances and Conglomerates will be key, as it's likely one faction will not be able to stand up against a larger one without assistance.

Well, what of the solar systems? Will these change hands during the war of the ubers? Some thought is required here. If the Ubers have their alliances and whatnot, it will be hard to discern who will gain control of a particular solar system. This may lead to more internal strife, which is good, so I think that if a majority of ships belonging to one faction are in one system for a period of time, it is re-allocated to the server that group registered with. This process would consist of the conquered server pinging that of the conquerers, asking whether or not they could handle the new property. If the answer is yes, the server would then hand the files over. If the conquerer's server has already reached its maximum of solar systems, the conquered server will sorta shrug its shoulders and host their new property in their name in parallel with the new one for the victims of the assault temporarily.

If space is still not available on the other server after a certain period of time the system will become neutral again, having a red icon next to the name on the list of locations to jump to on any Gate GUI. Basically, it will apply a debuff to the invaders mooching off the victim's server's resources, enabling another faction to catch them with their pants down and hopefully take control of the solar system, re-allocating it to their own serverbox. If not, the above procedure occurs again. On the third time, if the new/old conquerers can still not host the new system, the server hosting it gets frustrated and adds a twist: a timer will appear on the HUD of anyone in the system indicating time remaining before the star goes supernova. To compensate for the rush, the server will also spawn twice as many mineral resource asteroids, tempting the invaders and possibly causing their demise as the clock hits 0 and everyone still in the system sees a massive flash, and suddenly...nothing.

Once this is finished, the server breathes a sigh of relief and purges the solar system's files, and business as usual occurs anew.

The victims of the blast would then respawn in their faction's base on the system they registered with, but shipless. Speaking of which, here's how I think factions should work.

When you join a server (solar system) in Futurecraft, you'll spawn on their home planet. If they're already developed, you can then proceed to join a faction, as systems will only be capable of registering a certain number of factions in their name. Going on to that, if a server is starting anew, you can then start your own faction. A GUI will open up where you can upload a png of your faction's symbol. For sake of user friendliness, this GUI will be openable at any other time with the 'F' key, where it will list your members and name (which cannot be changed after the initial creation).

Anyway, once this is done, the server asks the server owner via console if this is OK, if it is the server will then discreetly submit your faction's data to the Futurecraft Master Server, who takes the file, nods, then sends the server's runner back with a confirmation. Once the runner is gone, the FMS takes a look at the file and says "Harumph, another PeN1$izGOD faction. Well, whatever, if they want to waste a faction slot on that, so be it." He then marks down that faction on that server's roster, which as mentioned only has a limited amount of spaces for such factions. The FMS will then send a copy of that roster to the server every so often, who will sorta stare at it for a while then submit it to its own encrypted database. When all the slots are full your request to make a faction will be denied. You must then either join an existing faction or wait for one to die out.

And speaking of dying, when your faction gets new members your ManPower count raises by 15 per member. When a member is killed, your faction's ManPower is reduced by 5 per death. So it'd be less than ideal to have a warmonger in your faction, give 'im da BOOT. Anyway, once your ManPower count is reduced to the negatives, your faction simply ceases to exist, at which point every member is discharged back to your server's homeworld's spawn, where you can try to quickly make another faction before someone else takes the slot, or join another one. This process applies to factions everywhere, be it in space or on land or in another solar system.

Well, those are my ideas on how that should work

So, what you're saying is that if I host a server, and then I fly to your server and nuke the outer 500 blocks off all your planets, those planets will teleport to my server and you'll get new ones?

Executor Nom Anor wrote:

So, what you're saying is that if I host a server, and then I fly to your server and nuke the outer 500 blocks off all your planets, those planets will teleport to my server and you'll get new ones?

You COULD, but it'd be much more ideal to simply assimilate the residents and retain their infrastructure for your own use. Or you could be extra careful and wipe out all the factions registered with that server, keeping their infrastructure. The Solar System would then be allocated by the Futurecraft Master Server as a task for your server to handle as opposed to the old one which is now hosting a new solar system for the victims, who will have to climb up the tech tree all over again to construct a gate.

Tiel wrote:

Executor Nom Anor wrote:

So, what you're saying is that if I host a server, and then I fly to your server and nuke the outer 500 blocks off all your planets, those planets will teleport to my server and you'll get new ones?

You COULD, but it'd be much more ideal to simply assimilate the residents and retain their infrastructure for your own use. Or you could be extra careful and wipe out all the factions registered with that server, keeping their infrastructure. The Solar System would then be allocated by the Futurecraft Master Server as a task for your server to handle as opposed to the old one which is now hosting a new solar system for the victims, who will have to climb up the tech tree all over again to construct a gate.

TFewNukes;DR

lolwut

I told you make that alien race that invades systems. It will give you a nice moderation of powers in the server without being unfair.

Iv121 wrote:

I told you make that alien race that invades systems. It will give you a nice moderation of powers in the server without being unfair.

No.Just no.

Yes. Just yes.

ACH0225 wrote:

Yes. Just yes.

Still no.Don't the the devs hate this idea?

I hate that idea and tiel's just seems too constricting. You're limiting the freedom of the player. In a game like minecraft, that's political suicide.

It's not minecraft. I see a need in a way to balance factions as there will be some huge and powerful factions and small new teams of people who just want to play with their friends. If those guys won't get a chance they won't play. Big factions should be troubled with invading forces that shit their attention from the smaller factions. It will also give them a challenge so they won't get bored smashing newbs.

OFC making it in a face of moderating fleet will be annoying, doing it like a random event of alien invasion will feel fair and fun.

The moderating fleet essentially is the alien race. Have you thought of it that way?


Anyway, we need to focus on building it, then worry about what it does later.


Do you guys like this design?

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