The size of a planet

Iv121 wrote:

See the problem is sara that I wouldn't repeat it if you got from the first time, NOW you NEVER get it from the first time so make your conclusions ...


And for you Craftqq the problem is not that the server has or has not 2TB of memory but rather if the PLAYER has it and if he has the bandwidth to transfer even 1.2 GB from the server, as see each time he encounters a new FACE of a planet he gets to DL 1.2 GB of data, that is huge, that is in fact too huge to be possible with the current computers so Frost has to DRASTICALLY improve the system to transfer data that is on the server worth 1.2 GB seamlessly, and that 6 times per planet and 4 times per each planet in the system !

- The 1.2GB are not the size of a face; they are the size of a 5000x5000x256 world. a face would be significally smaller (since you won't need to render 256 blocks done into ground), and unless your resolution is 80000 or higher, you can easily compress that even further.
- I never spoke of 2TB memory, having a server with that much memory (I'm sure 128Gb is more than enough)would be unnecessarily expensive (in terms of money); I meant the harddrive.

Now let me explain why all faces of a planet will be loaded, because you see them, because there is no image to hide it behind you must render all blocks to some extend because they are there and no matter what you do that is A LOT of info.

@Proto that is indeed that case however in order to do it you must first know what kind of blocks you have which means you must scan anyway all these blocks.

@LJS considering you tried to repeat what I said and basically never said it right yes you either didn't read or didn’t get, and so I explain again cosue I got the patience for it. Also what is absurd is that you didn't bring me a single pro of your system, yes there are but what you do is just pointlessly bash my idea just because of my name. To say all disagree with me is BS as Fen also agrees as well as Frost who however believes he can pull the other way off.

Also I guess you do want to balme me in starting this argument too, I'd like you to note that the only thing I did was presenting my solution to the problem when someone began that crap all over again so PLS don't blame me yet again, have a nice day.

Iv121 wrote:

@Proto that is indeed that case however in order to do it you must first know what kind of blocks you have which means you must scan anyway all these blocks.

Or do it the other way round, and generate the low res image first, and derive the blocks from that, the only problem then is showing changes to the image, but when a player loads the blocks, it should be possible to adjust to adjust the image accordingly. I mean from the low res image, it would take a massive change to affect it, but for the intermediate images, the changes would become more apparent.

Iv121 wrote:

Now let me explain why all faces of a planet will be loaded, because you see them, because there is no image to hide it behind you must render all blocks to some extend because they are there and no matter what you do that is A LOT of info.
-snip-

-a single player can only see 3 faces of a planet at once (get a {larger than the distance between your eyes} cube and try it)
-you can only see that much of it anyway, so why not compress that into an image? (or if you have the resolution I mentioned, where can I get a monitor {and a Graphic card} like that )
-mipmaps (terrain {rendering} compression), although Frost mentioned something better somewhere

-The surface from orbit must reflect the contents of the planet and change with changes made to the surface.  This is an absolute requirement.

-The world size is still too big.  Clients aren't downloading a movie overnight, they are getting data streamed from servers in realtime as they travel about and right now there is still too much of it.  Server owners pay through the nose for bandwidth, and it is going to come back to us if we start hosting cloud servers.


-All of you are going to stop fighting or I am going to start deleting.

Saravanth wrote:

EDITEDIT: And ffs, let's end this here so this thread stays clean. I don't want fr0st to delete stuff...

Too late.

But please, feel free to try again without the potshots or trying to get in the last word.

Don't bother actually, see because you clearly think Im here to destroy the mod and eat your souls, that I clearly am a fking selfish jackass that only cares about his ego and self image that really didn't want this mod to be released as soon as possible and actually make it a reality by being real and understanding you are way over your head, from now on I will basically not do it anymore, guess if Im the perfect evil I should make the perfect opposite to be the perfect good right ?

fr0stbyte124 wrote:

-The surface from orbit must reflect the contents of the planet and change with changes made to the surface.  This is an absolute requirement.

-The world size is still too big.  Clients aren't downloading a movie overnight, they are getting data streamed from servers in realtime as they travel about and right now there is still too much of it.  Server owners pay through the nose for bandwidth, and it is going to come back to us if we start hosting cloud servers.

-All of you are going to stop fighting or I am going to start deleting.

Disclaimer: the following is calculating on my part and may or may not be proven wrong
- pictures aren't that large - unless you're going to render every single texture on every single block face and send that to the client, it'll most likely stay below 2MB
- 512x512x512 (1024x256x256) worth of chunks and entities (which should be enough)= 72MB; I don't see a problem here (unless your connection is very slow)

If I'm wrong on any of my calculations, please tell me.

@iv
nobody's perfect, and (from my POV) that was unnecessary

fr0stbyte124 wrote:

Saravanth wrote:

EDITEDIT: And ffs, let's end this here so this thread stays clean. I don't want fr0st to delete stuff...

Too late.

But please, feel free to try again without the potshots or trying to get in the last word.

I... will refrain from that in the future. Now, that the situation has got better, I had a few (admittedly offtopic) questions that you could maybe answer...

Saravanth wrote:

Hey Fr0st, have you actually a rough idea about how liquids are going to work? If not quite, I think I may have a solution...

EDIT: And please clarify if the ships' hull can be penetrated in battle and similar situations or not, an idea of mine for life support systems depends on that...

EDIT: @Iv Don't.

What?

Anyway, the planet looks about what I'd expect a 5000x5000 block segment to look like. Have you been able to lay that on a cube yet? I think 3000x3000 would be big enough. Or you could be a traditionalist and make it a mile a side (1600 blocks), but that seems a bit too small to me.

craftqq wrote:

- pictures aren't that large - unless you're going to render every single texture on every single block face and send that to the client, it'll most likely stay below 2MB
- 512x512x512 (1024x256x256) worth of chunks and entities (which should be enough)= 72MB; I don't see a problem here (unless your connection is very slow)

The amount of streaming data needed is a tough thing to pin down, between compression and varying data formats.  There is also client-side caching to consider, since non-interactive scenery only gets you so far.  I'm going to have to get a lot further before I can begin to give a proper estimate on this.

Saravanth wrote:

Hey Fr0st, have you actually a rough idea about how liquids are going to work? If not quite, I think I may have a solution...

EDIT: And please clarify if the ships' hull can be penetrated in battle and similar situations or not, an idea of mine for life support systems depends on that...

I don't intend to change the way liquids work.  Fluid dynamics are really expensive.

Ship hulls can be penetrated, and you can lose atmosphere in a section.  The way damage is currently planned to work is basically that ships use a hitpiont system, but after a certain threshold, shots start producing physical damage.  This damage is procedurally generated and based on the nature of the damage taken.  For instance a collision might create long stress fractures while an armor piercing bolt might make a smaller hole but goes deeper and produces physical damage at higher HP levels.  If you get a lucky shot that damages critical section, you could potentially disable or destroy a ship without taking its HP all the way down.

Laserbilly wrote:

What?
Anyway, the planet looks about what I'd expect a 5000x5000 block segment to look like. Have you been able to lay that on a cube yet? I think 3000x3000 would be big enough. Or you could be a traditionalist and make it a mile a side (1600 blocks), but that seems a bit too small to me.

I can't do a cube yet.  I'll be focusing on getting volumetric rendering working 100% before trying to tackle full planets.
We can make a decision on the final size of planets later on.  For now I just need to make sure the engine can support any size we realistically may want to tackle.

Plus, it is worth keeping in mind that I intend for the Copernicus engine to work to some degree in non-FC mods, so even if something is not applicable for FC it may still be worth exploring.  One idea I've been nursing from the start (actually, the thing I was designing flying chunks for in the first place) is a steampunk mod with floating islands and airships and no ground.  It's sort of been done before, but I would like to see what happens when it is given the Futurecraft treatment.

Fr0stbyte124 wrote:

Saravanth wrote:

Hey Fr0st, have you actually a rough idea about how liquids are going to work? If not quite, I think I may have a solution....

I don't intend to change the way liquids work.  Fluid dynamics are really expensive.

I did actually mean that as in, in what direction would the water flow at the edge when the ocean is bent over it?

Not sure. We'll have to play with it. It will probably rely more on its surrounding context to work out which way is down, or it will spread out along multiple axes until one axis becomes dominant.

#latetotheparty

That would look kinda dumb from space, imo. Too many biomes. Maybe a 1km side would be best.

Or larger/better/more realistic biomes.

Making them smaller would improve overall performance and emphasize the benefits of exploring.

Comrade Tiel wrote:

Making them smaller would improve overall performance and emphasize the benefits of exploring.

If you mean interplanetary exploring, making planets having different specialised types would do exactly the same. And concerning the performance, there are sure ways to optimise that part even with planets that big.

That size is ideal to keep the feeling of a real planet, anything under 3000³ would just seem too limited.

Sometimes 'limited' means 'feasible'. This is a strained project as it is, having to store upwards of 7gb of data for a decent solar system would just make hosting wildly impractical.

Space is the main goal here, while I don't agree the ground should be removed entirely I do think no more resources than absolutely necessary should be expended on it. 1km is a good worldborder size for a small PVP server. Generally speaking that's all each world will be playing host to - they really don't need to be bigger.

Comrade Tiel wrote:

Sometimes 'limited' means 'feasible'. This is a strained project as it is, having to store upwards of 7gb of data for a decent solar system would just make hosting wildly impractical.

Space is the main goal here, while I don't agree the ground should be removed entirely I do think no more resources than absolutely necessary should be expended on it. 1km is a good worldborder size for a small PVP server. Generally speaking that's all each world will be playing host to - they really don't need to be bigger.

I agree, though I guess by the time this comes out computers will have (Hopefully) gotten fast enough to handle large amounts of data.

Frostbyte wrote:

Laserbilly wrote:

What?
Anyway, the planet looks about what I'd expect a 5000x5000 block segment to look like. Have you been able to lay that on a cube yet? I think 3000x3000 would be big enough. Or you could be a traditionalist and make it a mile a side (1600 blocks), but that seems a bit too small to me.

I can't do a cube yet.  I'll be focusing on getting volumetric rendering working 100% before trying to tackle full planets.
We can make a decision on the final size of planets later on.  For now I just need to make sure the engine can support any size we realistically may want to tackle.

Plus, it is worth keeping in mind that I intend for the Copernicus engine to work to some degree in non-FC mods, so even if something is not applicable for FC it may still be worth exploring.  One idea I've been nursing from the start (actually, the thing I was designing flying chunks for in the first place) is a steampunk mod with floating islands and airships and no ground.  It's sort of been done before, but I would like to see what happens when it is given the Futurecraft treatment.

That sounds fantastic. The first thing I thought of when I read "floating islands" was something similar to the floating mountains in Avatar. With them moving around and crashing into each other. Would something like that be possible, or do you have in mind something along the lines of a combination of the Aether and the Zeppelin mod?

I haven't had a chance to read through the whole thread, so sorry if these points have been brought up, but 5000x5000 is WAYYYY too big. Thats, assuming a flat surface, 250 MILLION blocks to display, on the surface alone! A total of 1.25 trillion blocks in a planet that large, 1.25 trillion. The technical challenges would be immense to try to display something that large. Not only that, but it feels too large to be... personal. You can't feel 'at home' in a planet that large. When you build a house, you feel safe and kinda cozy inside it, because you made it. You placed every block, you know it isn't dark because you lit it up personally. If you build a town with walls, you feel at home there, because its yours. You built it, you lighted it, you gave it your personal touches. Even if much of the land is pretty much the same as when it was untamed wilderness, you still feel safe on it because you made it yours. But, on a huge planet, nothing you do would ever do more than scratch the surface, its a giganic ocean with you swimming through it. You could only ever claim small parts of it. And no battle, no mining operation, no massive construction, would ever appear to be more than a tiny blemish on its surface. Something far smaller would be better.


A planet perhaps 500x500x500 would be far better. 250000 blocks on a (ideal) flat face, 125 milion total blocks. Much easier to handle from a technical standpoint, still large enough to have huge quantities of resources, and small enough to call 'home'. Its large, but small enough to make a difference. If you plant a forest, you could see it from orbit. You could build a town taking up a large portion of the surface. Strip mining and warfare would leave visible scars. You could call it yours, and care what happens to it. If your enemies set up a base on the far side of a 5km^3 world, who cares? Its a five day walk away. If someone lands on your 500x500x500 world, you care, because it's YOUR world.

Buggy1997123 wrote:

A planet perhaps 500x500x500 would be far better. 250000 blocks on a (ideal) flat face, 125 milion total blocks. Much easier to handle from a technical standpoint, still large enough to have huge quantities of resources, and small enough to call 'home'. Its large, but small enough to make a difference. If you plant a forest, you could see it from orbit. You could build a town taking up a large portion of the surface. Strip mining and warfare would leave visible scars. You could call it yours, and care what happens to it. If your enemies set up a base on the far side of a 5km^3 world, who cares? Its a five day walk away. If someone lands on your 500x500x500 world, you care, because it's YOUR world.[/i]

While that may be true, it wouldn't feel right to have mere multi-hundred block ships being near to or larger than a planet.

I'd have to say I'm with Vinyl on this one, worlds ought to be at least a kilometer or so on a side.

Also:

Buggy1997123 wrote:

-stuff-

BUGGY YOU'RE BACK!

Vinyl wrote:

Buggy1997123 wrote:

A planet perhaps 500x500x500 would be far better. 250000 blocks on a (ideal) flat face, 125 milion total blocks. Much easier to handle from a technical standpoint, still large enough to have huge quantities of resources, and small enough to call 'home'. Its large, but small enough to make a difference. If you plant a forest, you could see it from orbit. You could build a town taking up a large portion of the surface. Strip mining and warfare would leave visible scars. You could call it yours, and care what happens to it. If your enemies set up a base on the far side of a 5km^3 world, who cares? Its a five day walk away. If someone lands on your 500x500x500 world, you care, because it's YOUR world.[/i]

While that may be true, it wouldn't feel right to have mere multi-hundred block ships being near to or larger than a planet.

True, but a ship over a hundred meters across in several directions would pose its own issues. Ships would have more varied surfaces, so rendering a planet-dwarfing ship from a distance could be troublesome. Also, the same sort of personal-impersonal issue applies. I must admit though, a ship that literally eats planets to grow larger and repair itself would be the best thing in the existance of everything, ever.