LOOKING FOR A GAME

TBH I don't think he micro-manages at all. Sins does most of that automatically, at any rate, or so I thought (maybe why I lose so often? hmm..). Pat is just like extremely familiar with the game. It'd be like going up against a Diamond level SCII player - they know the build order, the ins and outs of their factions, etc, while you're just wallowing in the dirt.

...I didn't even know I could warp out sooner from gravity wells until now.

Comrade Tiel wrote:

TBH I don't think he micro-manages at all. Sins does most of that automatically, at any rate, or so I thought (maybe why I lose so often? hmm..). Pat is just like extremely familiar with the game. It'd be like going up against a Diamond level SCII player - they know the build order, the ins and outs of their factions, etc, while you're just wallowing in the dirt.

...I didn't even know I could warp out sooner from gravity wells until now.

I'm pretty sure you've got either a capital ship or an upgrade that allows you to phase jump further from the gravity well's extremity. It's probably called something like Gravity Tolerance?
Also, I micromanage pretty much everything.

Comrade Tiel wrote:

TBH I don't think he micro-manages at all. Sins does most of that automatically, at any rate, or so I thought (maybe why I lose so often? hmm..). Pat is just like extremely familiar with the game. It'd be like going up against a Diamond level SCII player - they know the build order, the ins and outs of their factions, etc, while you're just wallowing in the dirt.

...I didn't even know I could warp out sooner from gravity wells until now.

When I played against him he timed the powers of his capital ships so that not only did my attacks do nothing to him, they just reflected back to me. It was a mess. I did counter one of his tricks once, he started sending ghost ships into my minefields to clear them out, but I turned off the autoattack and forced him to do it the old way. I still lost in 5 minutes, though.

Laibach wrote:

Comrade Tiel wrote:

TBH I don't think he micro-manages at all. Sins does most of that automatically, at any rate, or so I thought (maybe why I lose so often? hmm..). Pat is just like extremely familiar with the game. It'd be like going up against a Diamond level SCII player - they know the build order, the ins and outs of their factions, etc, while you're just wallowing in the dirt.

...I didn't even know I could warp out sooner from gravity wells until now.

When I played against him he timed the powers of his capital ships so that not only did my attacks do nothing to him, they just reflected back to me. It was a mess. I did counter one of his tricks once, he started sending ghost ships into my minefields to clear them out, but I turned off the autoattack and forced him to do it the old way. I still lost in 5 minutes, though.

See, Advent OP. If your opponent knows what they're doing it's by far the most frustrating race to play against.

Comrade Tiel wrote:

Laibach wrote:

Comrade Tiel wrote:

TBH I don't think he micro-manages at all. Sins does most of that automatically, at any rate, or so I thought (maybe why I lose so often? hmm..). Pat is just like extremely familiar with the game. It'd be like going up against a Diamond level SCII player - they know the build order, the ins and outs of their factions, etc, while you're just wallowing in the dirt.

...I didn't even know I could warp out sooner from gravity wells until now.

When I played against him he timed the powers of his capital ships so that not only did my attacks do nothing to him, they just reflected back to me. It was a mess. I did counter one of his tricks once, he started sending ghost ships into my minefields to clear them out, but I turned off the autoattack and forced him to do it the old way. I still lost in 5 minutes, though.

See, Advent OP. If your opponent knows what they're doing it's by far the most frustrating race to play against.

Pretty sure a Vasari who knows what he's doing is the most frustrating to play against because he has the most powerful fleet of all three factions and can have it anywhere in a solar system in the blink of an eye.

Pat Best wrote:

Comrade Tiel wrote:

Laibach wrote:

Comrade Tiel wrote:

TBH I don't think he micro-manages at all. Sins does most of that automatically, at any rate, or so I thought (maybe why I lose so often? hmm..). Pat is just like extremely familiar with the game. It'd be like going up against a Diamond level SCII player - they know the build order, the ins and outs of their factions, etc, while you're just wallowing in the dirt.

...I didn't even know I could warp out sooner from gravity wells until now.

When I played against him he timed the powers of his capital ships so that not only did my attacks do nothing to him, they just reflected back to me. It was a mess. I did counter one of his tricks once, he started sending ghost ships into my minefields to clear them out, but I turned off the autoattack and forced him to do it the old way. I still lost in 5 minutes, though.

See, Advent OP. If your opponent knows what they're doing it's by far the most frustrating race to play against.

Pretty sure a Vasari who knows what he's doing is the most frustrating to play against because he has the most expensive fleet of all three factions and can have it anywhere in a solar system if he's investing in that particular tech tree the entire game.

fixed that for you

The fact that it's the most expensive is completely made up for by the fact that it will crush any other fleet. And if you're not researching phase node technology, you're not playing Vasari right.

Pat Best wrote:

The fact that it's the most expensive is completely made up for by the fact that it will crush any other fleet. And if you're not researching phase node technology, you're not playing Vasari right.

Yes, if I'm not putting all my resources into a civilian tech tree as opposed to spending it on a pitiful amount of ships I'm clearly doing something wrong.

Comrade Tiel wrote:

Pat Best wrote:

The fact that it's the most expensive is completely made up for by the fact that it will crush any other fleet. And if you're not researching phase node technology, you're not playing Vasari right.

Yes, if I'm not putting all my resources into a civilian tech tree as opposed to spending it on a pitiful amount of ships I'm clearly doing something wrong.

Hey it's not like I need to invest into culture and max it out to get phase missile block to not get owned by vasari phase missiles, right?

Girls, girls, you're both pretty.

Pat Best wrote:

Comrade Tiel wrote:

Pat Best wrote:

The fact that it's the most expensive is completely made up for by the fact that it will crush any other fleet. And if you're not researching phase node technology, you're not playing Vasari right.

Yes, if I'm not putting all my resources into a civilian tech tree as opposed to spending it on a pitiful amount of ships I'm clearly doing something wrong.

Hey it's not like I need to invest into culture and max it out to get phase missile block to not get owned by vasari phase missiles, right?

You're right, it's not like Vasari LRMs are horrendously expensive, weak as a sheet of wet paper, or particularly susceptible to the strikecraft the Advent fields en masse, heavens no.

Comrade Tiel wrote:

Pat Best wrote:

Comrade Tiel wrote:

Pat Best wrote:

The fact that it's the most expensive is completely made up for by the fact that it will crush any other fleet. And if you're not researching phase node technology, you're not playing Vasari right.

Yes, if I'm not putting all my resources into a civilian tech tree as opposed to spending it on a pitiful amount of ships I'm clearly doing something wrong.

Hey it's not like I need to invest into culture and max it out to get phase missile block to not get owned by vasari phase missiles, right?

You're right, it's not like Vasari LRMs are horrendously expensive, weak as a sheet of wet paper, or particularly susceptible to the strikecraft the Advent fields en masse, heavens no.

You mean the tier 1 LRMs that cost virtually the same as an illuminator and have phase missiles, thus giving them the best damage of all LRMs in the game?
And, look, considering both your bombers and fighters have phase missiles too and are much harder to kill with flak frigates and flak-like abilities, you've got no grounds on which to complain about advent strike craft.

Pat Best wrote:

You mean the tier 1 LRMs that cost virtually the same as an illuminator and have phase missiles

I mean the tier 1 LRMs in a fleet where everything else is much more expensive, meaning that early on when phase missiles have a negligible chance of actually bypassing (I cba to go ingame to check like you do every time one of these pop up, but it is a minute amount) a handful of frigates is a much better investment. Certainly it's annoying to you that anything has even a chance to bypass your SOOPER SHIELDS, I imagine.

Pat Best wrote:

And, look, considering both your bombers and fighters have phase missiles too and are much harder to kill with flak frigates and flak-like abilities, you've got no grounds on which to complain about advent strike craft.

As long as we're making up stuff, Advent strike craft deploy in much larger swarms and shoot cupcakes at the enemy. I've seen Vasari starfighters pop like overgrown pimples more often than not. A phase missile here or there doesn't change much, especially seeing as unless you're far up in the tech tree chances are they don't go through at all (late game this can be used to counter insane Advent shield mitigation, however).

Comrade Tiel wrote:

Pat Best wrote:

And, look, considering both your bombers and fighters have phase missiles too and are much harder to kill with flak frigates and flak-like abilities, you've got no grounds on which to complain about advent strike craft.

As long as we're making up stuff, Advent strike craft deploy in much larger swarms and shoot cupcakes at the enemy. I've seen Vasari starfighters pop like overgrown pimples more often than not. A phase missile here or there doesn't change much, especially seeing as unless you're far up in the tech tree chances are they don't go through at all (late game this can be used to counter insane Advent shield mitigation, however).

Advent strikecraft squadrons have loads of individual ships in them, but each individual ship has a lot less health. Vasari bomber squadrons only have 3 bombers while Advent ones have 7, but each individual Vasari bomber is worth about 2 Advent ones. Advent squadrons still end up with slightly more total health, but not by all that much. In a situation where a Vasari starfighter gets more or less OHK'd, an Advent one would have been gibbed.

Comrade Tiel wrote:

Pat Best wrote:

You mean the tier 1 LRMs that cost virtually the same as an illuminator and have phase missiles

I mean the tier 1 LRMs in a fleet where everything else is much more expensive, meaning that early on when phase missiles have a negligible chance of actually bypassing (I cba to go ingame to check like you do every time one of these pop up, but it is a minute amount) a handful of frigates is a much better investment. Certainly it's annoying to you that anything has even a chance to bypass your SOOPER SHIELDS, I imagine.

Pat Best wrote:

And, look, considering both your bombers and fighters have phase missiles too and are much harder to kill with flak frigates and flak-like abilities, you've got no grounds on which to complain about advent strike craft.

As long as we're making up stuff, Advent strike craft deploy in much larger swarms and shoot cupcakes at the enemy. I've seen Vasari starfighters pop like overgrown pimples more often than not. A phase missile here or there doesn't change much, especially seeing as unless you're far up in the tech tree chances are they don't go through at all (late game this can be used to counter insane Advent shield mitigation, however).

I honestly was not aware Vasari strikecraft had more health. They just die so quickly  

Let me put out the FACTS, not made up stuff:

Vasari strike craft have more health than any other strike craft, meaning it takes longer to bring them down and they can do more passes on enemy fleets before being destroyed by flak or anti-strike craft abilities.
Due to their increased health and damage per craft, the Vasari field less per squadron, which is why it may LOOK like the Advent have complete strike craft superiority when actually, they only have twice as many much weaker strike craft.

Vasari vessels equipped with phase missiles have had their damage reduced by a fraction compared to their other faction's relative equivalent to balance the fact it goes right through shields. HOWEVER, Vasari bombers have not suffered this penalty, which means they do relatively as much damage as other faction's bombers before going through shields, and much much more when they ignore shields

And yes, it is annoying that something has a chance to get through my shields because my entire faction is based on shields for survival. My ships have less armor and less hull. When you bypass my shields, we're talking about 70+% damage mitigation that you're completely IGNORING while my weapons are hitting on your 50-ish% mitigation added on top of your stronger hulls and higher armor.

Pat Best wrote:

When you bypass my shields, we're talking about 70+% damage mitigation that you're completely IGNORING while my weapons are hitting on your 50-ish% mitigation added on top of your stronger hulls and higher armor.

Certainly, it's not like Vas pay out of the ass for that advantage or anything like that.

Comrade Tiel wrote:

Pat Best wrote:

When you bypass my shields, we're talking about 70+% damage mitigation that you're completely IGNORING while my weapons are hitting on your 50-ish% mitigation added on top of your stronger hulls and higher armor.

Certainly, it's not like Vas pay out of the ass for that advantage or anything like that.

Why wouldn't you? It's built into your most important ships and works against all factions. I mean jeez, god forbid you actually have to invest in something to gain a decisive advantage against everything and everyone ever.

Plus, you don't think I pay out the ass on maxing out all culture tech ( which is much further down the Harmony tree than I normally need to go ), shield tech, building culture centers to make sure I'm actually IN my culture and building a rapture battlecruiser in order to reduce the chance of phase missiles bypassing my shields as much as possible or else I die?
You research one tech line, I have to research two and build a capital ship to counter it.

Not to mention I'll probably need to build a deliverance engine if I want to push forwards into your territory at any rate faster than that of a snail while waiting for my culture centers to slowly spread it forwards.

Bloody hell, stop bickering.

Laibach wrote:

Bloody hell, stop bickering.

Can't. Welcome to a futurecraft forums Sins thread.

What say we throw some numbers out there, at least on the strikecraft debate.

Vasari bombers
Health: 140
Armor: 5
Average damage: 6
Per squadron: 3
Carrier cost: 810
Health/squadron: 420
Damage/squadron: 18
Cost/squadron: 405
Cost/health: 0.964
Cost/damage: 22.5

Advent bombers
Health: 75
Armor: 1
Average damage: 3
Per squadron: 7
Carrier cost: 1280
Health/squadron: 525
Damage/squadron: 21
Cost/squadron: 426.7
Cost/health: 0.813
Cost/damage: 20.3

Advent bomber squadrons cost more than Vasari bomber squadrons, assuming they're coming off carrier cruisers, which most of them should be. Advent squadrons have 25% more health and do 16.7% more damage, and cost 5% more, so they're a slightly better deal. Fighter squadrons are more or less the same, and the TEC is in between Advent and Vasari for most of these.

Don't discount phase missiles, Tiel. I know they're expensive and they take a lot of research, but pretty much all your ships equip them and they're a direct counter to the Advent.

Last_Jedi_Standing wrote:

What say we throw some numbers out there, at least on the strikecraft debate.

Vasari bombers
Health: 140
Armor: 5
Average damage: 6
Per squadron: 3
Carrier cost: 810
Health/squadron: 420
Damage/squadron: 18
Cost/squadron: 405
Cost/health: 0.964
Cost/damage: 22.5

Advent bombers
Health: 75
Armor: 1
Average damage: 3
Per squadron: 7
Carrier cost: 1280
Health/squadron: 525
Damage/squadron: 21
Cost/squadron: 426.7
Cost/health: 0.813
Cost/damage: 20.3

Advent bomber squadrons cost more than Vasari bomber squadrons, assuming they're coming off carrier cruisers, which most of them should be. Advent squadrons have 25% more health and do 16.7% more damage, and cost 5% more, so they're a slightly better deal. Fighter squadrons are more or less the same, and the TEC is in between Advent and Vasari for most of these.

Don't discount phase missiles, Tiel. I know they're expensive and they take a lot of research, but pretty much all your ships equip them and they're a direct counter to the Advent.

The fact that advent strike craft have 25% more health is offset by the fact it's spread out between multiple craft and that there are abilities like Flak Burst and Telekinetic Push which that can wipe out the entire squadron in one or two hits while Vasari craft will take twice as much damage before the squadron is destroyed.

You also have to consider the fact that Vasari can begin teching into Phase Missiles from tier 1.
Advent, on the other hand, don't get access to Beam tech until tier 3. Until then, you'll probably be upgrading lasers and / or plasma.
That means that if you get to tier 3 and switch to illuminators and strike craft, you'll be going from ships with 20% upgraded laser weapons to ships with 0% upgraded beam weapons. It's a transition that costs both time and resources.

And you can't just rush to tier 3 to push out beam weapon ships early because advent carriers are ungodly expensive as are illuminators, and illuminators only really work when you have a lot of them.

Can we all just agree that the TEC is the most abused of the factions?

Laibach wrote:

Can we all just agree that the TEC is the most abused of the factions?

Their economy says otherwise.

But what about space Communists? They don't believe in an economy.