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Ivan2006
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PostSubject: Re: The Dedicated Argument Thread   Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:46 pm

@CMA: Eeh, you know the muslims invaded Europe well AFTER the crusades... right?
The crusades were between the 11th and 13th century whereas the muslim invasion of Europe reached its peak(s) in the 16th and 17th century (sieges of Vienna).
Get your historical facts straight.
The Crusades were only about wheras Jerusalem was to be ruled by christian or muslim rulers, which, as far as I understand it, both have the same right to this place.
It also wasn´t that the muslims didn´t let pilgrims in, they started attacking them only after the first crusade (tough they wanted a tribute I think). And THEN the templars were founded.
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PostSubject: Re: The Dedicated Argument Thread   Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:49 pm

Laibach wrote:
Like what, miracles? I can't see how you can disprove the arguments for a 'first mover' without falling back on a variation of the 'infinite stack of things holding up the world' argument.
I certainly don't pretend to understand the physics behind the creation of the universe, but if I spent a couple years taking university courses on it I eventually would. That weakens my argument somewhat; I'm not really a great example of this. If I were Stephen Hawking I could give you a much better debate.

EDIT: For the Crusades: The First Crusade was launched because the Muslims were invading the Byzantines, not Europe. The Byzantines were Christian, so when their Emperor asked the Pope for help he launched the Crusade. Capturing Jerusalem was a secondary goal, but that was what the Crusaders wanted to do once they got there, so helping the Byzantines was mostly forgotten.

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PostSubject: Re: The Dedicated Argument Thread   Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:50 pm

Laibach wrote:

@Saravanth: But he's saying that he's sure that something doesn't exist, it's sort of impossible to say that.
Well, that's why in my opinion agnosticism is the only logical belief/mindset. Humans are ignorant and know nothing, absolutely nothing, not even what they see the very moment they do. The search for guidance through religion always originates from either guilt, weakness or education since birth.

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PostSubject: Re: The Dedicated Argument Thread   Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:29 pm

Last_Jedi_Standing wrote:
Laibach wrote:
Like what, miracles? I can't see how you can disprove the arguments for a 'first mover' without falling back on a variation of the 'infinite stack of things holding up the world' argument.
I certainly don't pretend to understand the physics behind the creation of the universe, but if I spent a couple years taking university courses on it I eventually would. That weakens my argument somewhat; I'm not really a great example of this. If I were Stephen Hawking I could give you a much better debate.

EDIT: For the Crusades: The First Crusade was launched because the Muslims were invading the Byzantines, not Europe. The Byzantines were Christian, so when their Emperor asked the Pope for help he launched the Crusade. Capturing Jerusalem was a secondary goal, but that was what the Crusaders wanted to do once they got there, so helping the Byzantines was mostly forgotten.
AFAIK no one understands the physics behind the creation of the universe, there are some pretty strange theories, but nothing close to certain. And as for the Crusades, that's what I meant, Europe, Asia, same difference.

@Saravanth: Agnosticism is a much better religion/philosophy than atheism, but unless you throw logic out of the window when talking about the creation of the universe there has to be a creator/prime mover/God/whatever.
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PostSubject: Re: The Dedicated Argument Thread   Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:38 pm

Laibach wrote:

@Saravanth: Agnosticism is a much better religion/philosophy than atheism, but unless you throw logic out of the window when talking about the creation of the universe there has to be a creator/prime mover/God/whatever.
The logic there is the simplest of all, it's knowing that no one knows anything. I do neither believe in nor deny a deity creating the universe, but humans presuming to talk about such a thing is among the highest hubrises there are.
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PostSubject: Re: The Dedicated Argument Thread   Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:39 pm

Laibach wrote:

The Muslims were invading Europe, the Crusades pushed them out, and reclaimed Jerusalem, which, as far as I know, the muslims didn't have any more right to than the Crusaders. Later on they became immensely corrupt, and the entire purpose was basically lost in Greed, the last decent king of Jerusalem was Baldwin the IVth, I think. He lived around the time of the 3rd or 4th Crusade. I don't see why everyone thinks the conquest of Palestine was so evil, anyway. If it was, then the modern day 'opression' of Palestine by Israel is evil, the US war for independence was evil, the French revolution was evil, and pretty much any way in the middle east that's happened in the last 40 years was evil. As for my beliefs on what constitutes an evil/good war, see here. Again, I don't mean to be antagonistic etc. etc.

@Saravanth: But he's saying that he's sure that something doesn't exist, it's sort of impossible to say that.
@Tiel: I'm just trying to be clear, I have a bad enough reputation as it is.
Don't forget the Muslims got their own holy places there too, also when they took out a city the slaughtered it's population to sort of cleanse it, on the way the robbed pretty much every settlement they saw being it Muslim or Christian, they didn’t care so long they got supplies and money off of it. It was pretty much like most of Europe of that time where religion was a mere tool used to rule the population, not only by religious leaders, kings for example ruled by the "right given to them by god", a step down from being "godlike creatures" like the prev kings were.


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PostSubject: Re: The Dedicated Argument Thread   Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:42 pm

Iv121 wrote:
Laibach wrote:

The Muslims were invading Europe, the Crusades pushed them out, and reclaimed Jerusalem, which, as far as I know, the muslims didn't have any more right to than the Crusaders. Later on they became immensely corrupt, and the entire purpose was basically lost in Greed, the last decent king of Jerusalem was Baldwin the IVth, I think. He lived around the time of the 3rd or 4th Crusade. I don't see why everyone thinks the conquest of Palestine was so evil, anyway. If it was, then the modern day 'opression' of Palestine by Israel is evil, the US war for independence was evil, the French revolution was evil, and pretty much any way in the middle east that's happened in the last 40 years was evil. As for my beliefs on what constitutes an evil/good war, see here. Again, I don't mean to be antagonistic etc. etc.

@Saravanth: But he's saying that he's sure that something doesn't exist, it's sort of impossible to say that.
@Tiel: I'm just trying to be clear, I have a bad enough reputation as it is.
Don't forget the muslims got their own holy palces there too, also when they took out a city the slaughtered it's population to sort of cleanse it, on the way the robbed pretty much every settlement they saw being it Muslim or christian, they didnt care so long they got supplies and money off of it.
That's sort of my point, the only reason the Crusades and Crusaders are considered 'bad' is because it's politically correct to blame things on Christianity/Europe.

Desdenova wrote:
Laibach wrote:

@Saravanth: Agnosticism is a much better religion/philosophy than atheism, but unless you throw logic out of the window when talking about the creation of the universe there has to be a creator/prime mover/God/whatever.
The logic there is the simplest of all, it's knowing that no one knows anything. I do neither believe in nor deny a deity creating the universe, but humans presuming to talk about such a thing is among the highest hubrises there are.
It's simple, but Occams razor doesn't work that way, the idea that order could come from disorder is sort of ridiculous.
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PostSubject: Re: The Dedicated Argument Thread   Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:03 pm

Laibach wrote:

Desdenova wrote:
Laibach wrote:

@Saravanth: Agnosticism is a much better religion/philosophy than atheism, but unless you throw logic out of the window when talking about the creation of the universe there has to be a creator/prime mover/God/whatever.
The logic there is the simplest of all, it's knowing that no one knows anything. I do neither believe in nor deny a deity creating the universe, but humans presuming to talk about such a thing is among the highest hubrises there are.
It's simple, but Occams razor doesn't work that way, the idea that order could come from disorder is sort of ridiculous.
They said toilet paper was ridiculous as well. Got you there.

PS: It's funny, ride the lightning was playing when I've seen your new profile pic... huehue...
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PostSubject: Re: The Dedicated Argument Thread   Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:03 pm

Laibach wrote:

It's simple, but Occams razor doesn't work that way, the idea that order could come from disorder is sort of ridiculous.
The western world is on its way to becoming fairly orderly; and that came about from a bunch of amoeba; which unless they turn out to have a rich and varied culture; I probably wouldn't consider orderly. The same goes for a forest growing back after an enormous fire; order often comes from disorder eventually.
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PostSubject: Re: The Dedicated Argument Thread   Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:10 pm

MrTargareyan wrote:
Laibach wrote:

It's simple, but Occams razor doesn't work that way, the idea that order could come from disorder is sort of ridiculous.
The western world is on its way to becoming fairly orderly; and that came about from a bunch of amoeba; which unless they turn out to have a rich and varied culture; I probably wouldn't consider orderly. The same goes for a forest growing back after an enormous fire; order often comes from disorder eventually.
That's sort of circular reasoning, you're assuming that evolution occurred without any guiding force/God and then you use that as an example of order coming from disorder. Does that make any sense?


Desdenova wrote:
Laibach wrote:

Desdenova wrote:
Laibach wrote:

@Saravanth: Agnosticism is a much better religion/philosophy than atheism, but unless you throw logic out of the window when talking about the creation of the universe there has to be a creator/prime mover/God/whatever.
The logic there is the simplest of all, it's knowing that no one knows anything. I do neither believe in nor deny a deity creating the universe, but humans presuming to talk about such a thing is among the highest hubrises there are.
It's simple, but Occams razor doesn't work that way, the idea that order could come from disorder is sort of ridiculous.
They said toilet paper was ridiculous as well. Got you there.

PS: It's funny, ride the lightning was playing when I've seen your new profile pic... huehue...

What I meant by ridiculous is fallacious, actually. It even contradicts the second(?) law of thermodynamics. And did they? I've always wondered how some of our more esoteric practices(toilet paper, drinking milk, etc.) came about. Also I love that album/song.
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PostSubject: Re: The Dedicated Argument Thread   Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:27 pm

Laibach wrote:
It's simple, but Occams razor doesn't work that way, the idea that order could come from disorder is sort of ridiculous.
Have you ever seen a simple computer program to organize a randomized black and white background into a checkerboard? Order from disorder is really easy. ~40 lines of code. Although I suppose the obvious retort there is that programming requires a programmer, so that may also be a crappy example. :/

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PostSubject: Re: The Dedicated Argument Thread   Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:28 pm

@ laibach That's whyi included the example about forest fires, I would argue that an all powerful god would have managed order a little quicker though; with far less lives spent.
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PostSubject: Re: The Dedicated Argument Thread   Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:31 pm

Last_Jedi_Standing wrote:
Laibach wrote:
It's simple, but Occams razor doesn't work that way, the idea that order could come from disorder is sort of ridiculous.
Have you ever seen a simple computer program to organize a randomized black and white background into a checkerboard? Order from disorder is really easy. ~40 lines of code. Although I suppose the obvious retort there is that programming requires a programmer, so that may also be a crappy example. :/
Yeah, that doesn't really work, the order isn't coming from random agitations of the black and white squares, but from the instructions the programmer wrote.

MrTargareyan wrote:
@ laibach That's whyi included the example about forest fires, I would argue that an all powerful god would have managed order a little quicker though; with far less lives spent.
According to most religions(I think?) humanity screwed things up for ourselves. And if there is a soul, and the chance of heaven, then death on Earth really isn't a big deal. Other people have answered this much better than I have, I'll see if I can find a link.


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PostSubject: Re: The Dedicated Argument Thread   Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:34 pm

Can we just say god(if existant, noone can prove or disprove) got lazy and implemented the laws of nature into the universe to avoid doing everything by himself and be happy/go home?
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PostSubject: Re: The Dedicated Argument Thread   Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:37 pm

@targareyan: here's what St. Thomas Aquinas had to say about it.

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Ivan2006 wrote:
Can we just say god(if existant, noone can prove or disprove) got lazy and implemented the laws of nature into the universe to avoid doing everything by himself and be happy/go home?
Why would we say that? If y'all don't want to discuss this anymore that's fine.


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PostSubject: Re: The Dedicated Argument Thread   Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:39 pm

Laibach wrote:
That's sort of circular reasoning, you're assuming that evolution occurred without any guiding force/God and then you use that as an example of order coming from disorder. Does that make any sense?
But who is to say that something needs a guiding force? Is god telling you to get up each day and go to school/work. Although there is a guiding force their, it is very easy for you to change course and say "nah I don't feel like it". Also, you could argue that natural selection is a guiding force as it picks off the weak. But Natural selection isn't a conscious body, it's more of a theory or concept.
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PostSubject: Re: The Dedicated Argument Thread   Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:45 pm

Luna wrote:
Laibach wrote:
That's sort of circular reasoning, you're assuming that evolution occurred without any guiding force/God and then you use that as an example of order coming from disorder. Does that make any sense?
But who is to say that something needs a guiding force? Is god telling you to get up each day and go to school/work. Although there is a guiding force their, it is very easy for you to change course and say "nah I don't feel like it". Also, you could argue that natural selection is a guiding force as it picks off the weak. But Natural selection isn't a conscious body, it's more of a theory or concept.
By guiding force I mean intelligent design, my mind is what makes me get up(or not get up) in the mornings, not some arbitrary chemical process. Natural selection, in the little biology I've had, only seems to optimize an organism to the local environment, I can't think of any plausible explanation for why life progressed past the single-celled stage without some sort of 'engineer.' Not to mention Abiogenesis is just silly.

Luna wrote:
But who is to say that something needs a guiding force?
Entropy, I think.
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PostSubject: Re: The Dedicated Argument Thread   Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:54 pm

@Laibach I remember an episode of Futurama, where professor farnsworth goes to exile on some barren planet. There was a little puddle of water, which unfortunately wasn't clean enough for consuming. He released some little adaptive nanobots to clean it, and overnight, they have evolved into more complex "life". Over course of the episode, they witnessed some kind of accelerated robot-evolution. Nice episode, I'll try to find it's title.

=================================

Found it, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Clockwork_Origin .

Also, this is the argument thread. Ironic that there is no argument up until now, despite religion being discussed.
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PostSubject: Re: The Dedicated Argument Thread   Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:00 pm

I would say humans are probably more successful than single celled organisms, and are able to travel further and adapt better than single celled organisms. And another example of random chance creating order is flipping a coin and getting 10 heads in a row, flip it enough times, and it will happen eventually.
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PostSubject: Re: The Dedicated Argument Thread   Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:02 pm

Desdenova wrote:
@Laibach I remember an episode of Futurama, where professor farnsworth goes to exile on some barren planet. There was a little puddle of water, which unfortunately wasn't clean enough for consuming. He released some little adaptive nanobots to clean it, and overnight, they have evolved into more complex "life". Over course of the episode, they witnessed some kind of accelerated robot-evolution. Nice episode, I'll try to find it's title.

=================================

Found it, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Clockwork_Origin .

Also, this is the argument thread. Ironic that there is no argument up until now, despite religion being discussed.
Lol, I love that episode.


MrTargareyan wrote:
I would say humans are probably more successful than single celled organisms, and are able to travel further and adapt better than single celled organisms. And another example of random chance creating order is flipping a coin and getting 10 heads in a row, flip it enough times, and it will happen eventually.
Archebacteria(I think that's the word) are infinitely more adaptable than humans, they can live in all sorts of extreme environments.
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PostSubject: Re: The Dedicated Argument Thread   Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:05 pm

Laibach wrote:
@targareyan: here's what St. Thomas Aquinas had to say about it.

Spoiler:
 

Ivan2006 wrote:
Can we just say god(if existant, noone can prove or disprove) got lazy and implemented the laws of nature into the universe to avoid doing everything by himself and be happy/go home?
Why would we say that? If y'all don't want to discuss this anymore that's fine.
Ivan doesn't like critical discussion for whatever reason. May be a touchy subject for him.

I'm kinda happy we're going somewhere with this.
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PostSubject: Re: The Dedicated Argument Thread   Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:09 pm

Tiel+ wrote:
Laibach wrote:
@targareyan: here's what St. Thomas Aquinas had to say about it.

Spoiler:
 

Ivan2006 wrote:
Can we just say god(if existant, noone can prove or disprove) got lazy and implemented the laws of nature into the universe to avoid doing everything by himself and be happy/go home?
Why would we say that? If y'all don't want to discuss this anymore that's fine.
Ivan doesn't like critical discussion for whatever reason. May be a touchy subject for him.

I'm kinda happy we're going somewhere with this.
It's fine with me if he doesn't want to talk about it, but I tend to enjoy this sort of thing.
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PostSubject: Re: The Dedicated Argument Thread   Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:26 pm

So... Where were we? It'd be a shame to let this die now...
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PostSubject: Re: The Dedicated Argument Thread   Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:28 pm

Laibach wrote:
Luna wrote:
Laibach wrote:
That's sort of circular reasoning, you're assuming that evolution occurred without any guiding force/God and then you use that as an example of order coming from disorder. Does that make any sense?
But who is to say that something needs a guiding force? Is god telling you to get up each day and go to school/work. Although there is a guiding force their, it is very easy for you to change course and say "nah I don't feel like it". Also, you could argue that natural selection is a guiding force as it picks off the weak. But Natural selection isn't a conscious body, it's more of a theory or concept.
By guiding force I mean intelligent design, my mind is what makes me get up(or not get up) in the mornings, not some arbitrary chemical process. Natural selection, in the little biology I've had, only seems to optimize an organism to the local environment, I can't think of any plausible explanation for why life progressed past the single-celled stage without some sort of 'engineer.' Not to mention Abiogenesis is just silly.
The recurrent laryngeal nerve is the common example of how evolution doesn't doesn't always magically improve things.  It is a nerve that travels from the brain to the larynx by way of the heart, making the trip several feet longer than it needs to be.  It is like that for all vertebrates, and in the case of the giraffe, it is 15 feet long.  This nerve developed back when we were fish, predating even the modern larynx it would eventually control.  At the time it was a straight connection from point A to point B, but generation after generation, the nerve was unable to pop to the other side of the heart and there was no significant evolutionary impetus to do so.  And now we're just stuck with it.  For every favorable mutation there are 100,000 failures which are either useless or get the carrier killed, so it ends up looking like a magical process in retrospect.  But it's not.  It's a very messy lottery that's been going on for an unfathomably long time.
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PostSubject: Re: The Dedicated Argument Thread   Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:35 pm

fr0stbyte124 wrote:
Laibach wrote:
Luna wrote:
Laibach wrote:
That's sort of circular reasoning, you're assuming that evolution occurred without any guiding force/God and then you use that as an example of order coming from disorder. Does that make any sense?
But who is to say that something needs a guiding force? Is god telling you to get up each day and go to school/work. Although there is a guiding force their, it is very easy for you to change course and say "nah I don't feel like it". Also, you could argue that natural selection is a guiding force as it picks off the weak. But Natural selection isn't a conscious body, it's more of a theory or concept.
By guiding force I mean intelligent design, my mind is what makes me get up(or not get up) in the mornings, not some arbitrary chemical process. Natural selection, in the little biology I've had, only seems to optimize an organism to the local environment, I can't think of any plausible explanation for why life progressed past the single-celled stage without some sort of 'engineer.' Not to mention Abiogenesis is just silly.
The recurrent laryngeal nerve is the common example of how evolution doesn't doesn't always magically improve things.  It is a nerve that travels from the brain to the larynx by way of the heart, making the trip several feet longer than it needs to be.  It is like that for all vertebrates, and in the case of the giraffe, it is 15 feet long.  This nerve developed back when we were fish, predating even the modern larynx it would eventually control.  At the time it was a straight connection from point A to point B, but generation after generation, the nerve was unable to pop to the other side of the heart and there was no significant evolutionary impetus to do so.  And now we're just stuck with it.  For every favorable mutation there are 100,000 failures which are either useless or get the carrier killed, so it ends up looking like a magical process in retrospect.  But it's not.  It's a very messy lottery that's been going on for an unfathomably long time.
You know more about it then I do, but I'm still convinced there was an intelligent aspect in certain stages, at least in the jump to sentience from... I don't know, whatever gorillas are. And Abiogenesis still seems impossible, or at least implausible to the point of impossibility.

Desdenova wrote:
So... Where were we? It'd be a shame to let this die now...
I had a point I was making but I forgot it, damn.
Anyway, read Aquinas.
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