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Saravanth
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PostSubject: Overdue Enlightenment   Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:10 pm

Last night I've been lying awake in bed until perhaps 4:30, thinking about what we shoot for with this colossus of a project. It is fascinating how clear your thoughts are when you are fully awake, but having your senses not distracted by external stimuli. So here's what I've been thinking about, except for some specific ideas and schemes going into far deeper detail...

What does Futurecraft need BESIDES stuff in space? You wonder why I am asking this? Because if we focus on the space part only, we'll end up like StarMade. We don't want to end up like StarMade. People will not play another StarMade. Even though we had the idea sooner than Schema, he got it out first.

So we have to bid the people more. Far more.

The key, the only way to actually get people to play Futurecraft instead of StarMade or any of those massive mod packs is to make tons of different stuff available to people who just want to live their futuristic fantasies on the ground, and we have to overshadow them ALL. Didn't we plan to pack everyone into one single Universe? That's just exactly the prerequisite for a great MMO. And that's what Futurecraft is meant to be, that's what I gathered at least. Actually that's the only way this can really succeed if you think it through...

And not everyone wants to put all their resources into warships whose ultimate fate it is to be destroyed, damned to float through the abyss as wreckage. Not everyone is a hog of war, there are many, many good people out there who want to be traders, architects, couriers, merchants, politicians in some faction, researchers of all different kinds of stuff, food manufacturers, mechanics, just the citizens of a futuristic metropolis, and loads of different things, just to name very few. And still, nearly every of the few ideas I noticed the last months submitted was more or less linked to war or battleships.

Everyone here must realize that. Every damn single one of us. Don't look at me like that, you know exactly what the main reason for rage quitting is, or very well could and actually for sure will be. But just stop thinking about pulse cannons, plasma rifles, pirates, dreadnaughts and faction wars, and use your grey cells to find ways how to make the life on the ground a long lasting fun time. Think about food, think about professions, think about sciences, heck, you can even think about goddamn minigames or cookies.

Here, I'll have you something to ponder: What good, honorable reason to fight is there, if not only to defend what you worked hard for to achieve and at last learned to love?
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PostSubject: Re: Overdue Enlightenment   Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:21 pm

Actually, the signature right up there "Futurecraft - Command your fleet" is exactly the wrong vision.
Or, let's just say it is by far not complete. Or reasoned enough.
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PostSubject: Re: Overdue Enlightenment   Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:26 pm

You have a point. But despite that, there is one thing that will prevent everyone rushing giant super death dreadnoughts of doom.

War is expensive as hell.

And to fund war, you need a civilian base with people doing trade and mining and R&D and all that good stuff. While one Pro MLG guy could feasably get a big ship on his own, that will be the huge exception. What I expect is your average groups of like 15-20 people from a server who have banded together and have a frigate and mining ships and city, and there will probably be like 25 of these. Then there will be the massive war engine gaming groups. These will be 100-150 person groups who will have battlefleets and be generally organized, but will also have a god-tier economy, simply because they won't be able to survive without one. These big groups will need large fleets, and will be aggressive and to be aggressive with large fleets they need tons of miners and factories and traders to make the ships to fight the other big groups. This will all be liquid, of course, and smaller groups will fuse and big groups will dissolve, but you'll end up with fleets guarding trade ships that carry resources to build more stuff.


TL;DR-War will drive the economy, making good economy a first priority.
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PostSubject: Re: Overdue Enlightenment   Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:37 pm

It was written a very long time ago when that was exactly the vision.

Also, this isn't the first time we've had this discussion, but normally we start fighting before we come to any conclusion.
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PostSubject: Re: Overdue Enlightenment   Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:15 pm

So let's try and not fight this time. It's time to dissolve this fog once and for all.

You're right, Ach. That is going to happen (albeit it should be nearly impossible for one person to build a big ship from scratch all on his own, such absurdity must be prevented). Wars can not and must not by any means be prevented. I am trying to adress the lack of civilian content we came up with. Things that are independent of war, serving purposes of entertainment and adding more interest to colony/city life. For economy to be there have to be objects of demand in the first place. We must create those as foundation for anything else.

Now that we're at it, could someone perhaps inform me how far the planned extent of NPC-Influence on players goes, or if that has even been decided by now anyways? I had a conversation with Iv, and that's still bugging me...
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PostSubject: Re: Overdue Enlightenment   Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:40 pm

AFAIK, NPCs serve as trading outpost type things, pirates, and crew members. They will trade with you, sit around in generated ships and attack you, and also operate weapons.

As for entertainment, if the mere mod itself isn't entertaining them, that's a problem. And each thing you can do in the mod(except fighting) can be separate from war. If you're a miner, you could sell your minerals to the military fleet, or you could sell it to a manufacturing corporation to make waffle irons. There will probably be more demand for space things anyways. There'll be expansions on ground stuff too, and the basic stuff will be expanded, but the focus is in space. The DEVs might only add one thing to farming, and 40 to war, simply because farming has very little to do with space. It's likely there will be few true civilians, due to the nature of the game itself. A farmer could easily get a gang together, pool money, and buy a frigate and kill people. There will, I expect, be lots of things to do on the ground. There will be new building blocks(Citation needed) that you can use to build houses and stuff, but don't hold your breath for FTB or SpaceThaumCraft. The focus here is space.
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PostSubject: Re: Overdue Enlightenment   Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:22 pm

Is that really where we ended up with villagers/npcs?

I think it would be better to have them in four different types:

Blue: Owned by you (Obviously "owned" is the wrong term, but it's easier to type than "citizen controlled by")
Green: Owned by Allied Player
Grey: Unowned/Owned by Neutral Player
Red: Owned by Enemy

Their colors (as you will see them) allow for varying degrees of trade options and hostility.

Owned villagers can have occupations (trader, farmer, rancher, miner, lumberjack, soldier, scientist, shipbuilder, etc...) which are determined by the equipment you give them.

To spawn, they require a 3x3x3 block room that includes a bed, a chest, and a light source. However, to encourage trade and cut down on lag, a player can only own a certain number of villagers, somewhere between 20-50.

These are only a few ideas of mine, and they require some more thought; but I think it would be fun to travel to a planet and find a dozen or more cities and orbital stations to travel to and trade with. Each of them built and defended differently, according to their creator's style.
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PostSubject: Re: Overdue Enlightenment   Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:25 pm

How do NPCs spawn in the first place?

I don't think there ever was a decision as far as whether the player advances them from the villages already in current generation, or if those are to be done away with entirely in favor of just spontaneously spawning them.
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PostSubject: Re: Overdue Enlightenment   Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:07 am

I always figured they'd spawn at like a bunk you'd put down in your ship or something.
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PostSubject: Re: Overdue Enlightenment   Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:24 am

Npcs cannot be persistent or terribly advanced. That's a whole other can of worms we're not prepared to tackle. For the most part I imagine npcs will end up being window dressing for pre-existing background systems rather than being true individuals. Mechanical horses, so to speak. That's the only way we can make it scale to an ecosystem.
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PostSubject: Re: Overdue Enlightenment   Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:35 am

Regarding NPC's I suggest making a seperate thread. Let's dedicate this one to the overall focus of and discussion about the mods entirety. Otherwise stuff can't be found easily enough later on.

Recall the name of the mod. Futurecraft. The future. Mackeroth, at the very beginning, described it as the future of Minecraft's multiplayer. Spreading across the stars, to open opportunities as sheer as the void those are surrounded by to the player. Think again, what is the primary purpose of a spaceship, at least the first ones created by any civilisation? Transportation. The first ships will only exist to bring players to resources in space to research new technology and making their lives easier. As "life" in Minecraft is ridiculously easy we have to toughen it up by a high degree so it stays interesting. You are thinking very far forward, Ach. If we want people to keep playing our game for a very long time we must make it last. Actual armed space ships, in my opinion, and I am talking about the player's prototypes, should not appear in the universe before something about the second month it is released (And those should still not possess a sufficient FTL-Core!). Because soon after that the players will have progressed so far that mass production in it's initial stages will appear. If we allow people to wage war across star systems before the fourth month (and not have filled those carefully with time consuming, but rewarding content) the game will lose it's salt. Understand that the player has to make the progression by himself, he must find the means to acquire those miraculous technologies by himself. Everything else would be equal to giving nuclear weapons to cavemen. Do you know the story of the Krogans from the Mass Effect-universe? That's what'd expect us here, and there is neither glory nor beauty in this. We have to slow it down naturally.

This mod will be far bigger than anything before, because it has to be. It is an one-man-army against hordes of modpacks, which are constructed out of dozens of invaluable utilites. And people fear change if they don't see it does obviously benefit them. But we have the opportunity to make it a moloch amongst dwarves. We have no other choice than to make this mod far more than only spaceships and planets, as those already exist, albeit watered down compared to this. Fr0st provides us the bones, skin and the most vital organs, it is up to everyone else to fill it with flesh and guts!

Even before it is ready, planets ready and ships functional, we have to come up with a reasonable, challenging, yet sustainable path leading to their acquiry in the first place. And a smart, subtle but obvious way to find this path.
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PostSubject: Re: Overdue Enlightenment   Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:44 am

So, I've got quite some ideas and suggestions for several changes of gameplay or random, but useful technology here and there. I'll post them in the idea center soon if that does not pose a problem with anyone. It wouldn't kill any baby kittens if at least some people did the same.
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PostSubject: Re: Overdue Enlightenment   Sat Aug 10, 2013 3:27 am

You know my position, focus on one thing or you will never complete anything, you can barely complete the space part, want to add more ? Go ahead, good luck ... probably as a good saving mechanism if you want it to be added code it yourself. This way if it never appears on the mod at least the main devs didn't waste time on it.
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PostSubject: Re: Overdue Enlightenment   Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:23 am

Ideas don't hurt, but try not to set up impossible expectations. We can do a lot, but we can't single-handedly do everything everyone else does but more and better. Pick your battles.
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PostSubject: Re: Overdue Enlightenment   Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:34 am

fr0stbyte124 wrote:
Ideas don't hurt, but try not to set up impossible expectations. We can do a lot, but we can't single-handedly do everything everyone else does but more and better. Pick your battles.
Sad  But I just want a perfect fusion of Age of Empires, Planetside 2, and Eve Online... That's not too much to ask, is it??
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PostSubject: Re: Overdue Enlightenment   Sat Aug 10, 2013 2:50 pm

Laserbilly wrote:
fr0stbyte124 wrote:
Ideas don't hurt, but try not to set up impossible expectations. We can do a lot, but we can't single-handedly do everything everyone else does but more and better. Pick your battles.
Sad  But I just want a perfect fusion of Age of Empires, Planetside 2, and Eve Online... That's not too much to ask, is it??
No we just going for the PS2 and Eve elements right now.
*Sigh* I think.
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PostSubject: Re: Overdue Enlightenment   Sat Aug 10, 2013 3:06 pm

I'd love to completely rewrite the Futurecraft OP because I'm just that brand of egotistic maggot, but I'm doubtful as to the point seeing as every of my past attempts to present a cohesive, definitive set of ideas have crashed and burned. People around here just don't know what they want, but will fight tooth and nail nonetheless.
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PostSubject: Re: Overdue Enlightenment   Sat Aug 10, 2013 3:32 pm

`Hey what happened last topic I tried to help you find out what you want ? It went down with the rest of the new forum prob but I was talking about how after long bloody fights at least some ppl agreed on sticking with the space theme and not going "All things futuristic" which is rather an unrealistic dumb dream, the rest went pretty much up that direction and so unless you view it as a valid answer you know where we stand ...

Telling you the truth no matter what you say or decide right now that is exactly what is going to be made and not more simply because that is what frost is working on right now and apart from that nobody works on anything, that is why if you want anything extra you better learn how to code, that or we need to get more coders.
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PostSubject: Re: Overdue Enlightenment   Sat Aug 10, 2013 3:38 pm

Iv121 wrote:
 `Hey what happened last topic I tried to help you found out what you want ?
You're going to accuse me of not reading anything, and yes, I'll admit most of your post flew right over my head. Your english is good, but it can get confusing at times.

But judging from the first sentence, the paragraph was pointing out the lack of focus and asserting either the need for one, or the acquiring of more coders. Listen, right now, what does Futurecraft have over, say, Starmade? Absolutely nothing, mostly because it doesn't exist. If you want a purely in space game, go for Starmade. If you want a mod that builds off of Minecraft's gameplay, get Futurecraft.

In Mack's original OP, he described it as an evolution of Minecraft's multiplayer. I see no real reason to change that, unless you want FC to be a pathetic ripoff of Starmade.
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PostSubject: Re: Overdue Enlightenment   Sat Aug 10, 2013 3:50 pm

Well what half-life 1 has over half-life 2 ? What difference was made between the last few Bioshocks ?

Well probably the engine ... Actually no , but even Futurecraft's engine seem to be superior to Starmade right now. You can view it as an experiment, you can see how we can make better, you can see how we can actually have a different game formula. If you plan to make an entirely unique game then I'd like to disappoint you FC is not going to be it (especially not the way you plan to make it so far) , to make a good game you don't have to make a wholly new idea (although they are always welcome !) , you just need to tweak the formula. Most games are variations of each other and if you look at all those X or star citizen , they seem to offer the same (Yea open world and snadbox ! That was what you pointed out about the new X right ? Exists in star citizen too), the tweaks to the formula will be those who make the change.

And BTW being able to see a ship 3Km away is already a big advantage over starmade, I keep bumping there into unloaded stuff. The fact the engine is so similar to MC's one means it carried over all the flaws and limitations. If frost really completes it that engine will already set us apart from anything else plus there are so many broken things about starmade that we have the chance to fix. I don't see starmade as a competition or a threat as some might call it, rather an experiment, a way to play and test things out, to see how it works and have a look at a different doctrine that might teach us more about ours, give us more ideas. That is what the tweaking is about - to collect the best from all sides into a better experience.
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PostSubject: Re: Overdue Enlightenment   Sat Aug 10, 2013 3:55 pm

Iv121 wrote:
Well what half-life 1 has over half-life 2 ? What difference was made between the last few Bioshocks ?

Well probably the engine ... Actually no , but even Futurecraft's engine seem to be superior to Starmade right now. You can view it as an experiment, you can see how we can make better, you can see how we can actually have a different game formula. If you plan to make an entirely unique game then I'd like to disappoint you FC is not going to be it (especially not the way you plan to make it so far) , to make a good game you don't have to make a wholly new idea (although they are always welcome !) , you just need to tweak the formula. Most games are variations of each other and if you look at all those X or star citizen , they seem to offer the same (Yea open world and snadbox ! That was what you pointed out about the new X right ? Exists in star citizen too), the tweaks to the formula will be those who make the change.

And BTW being able to see a ship 3Km away is already a big advantage over starmade, I keep bumping there into unloaded stuff. The fact the engine is so similar to MC's one means it carried over all the flaws and limitations. If frost really completes it that engine will already set us apart from anything else plus there are so many broken things about starmade that we have the chance to fix. I don't see starmade as a competition or a threat as some might call it, rather an experiment, a way to play and test things out, to see how it works and have a look at a different doctrine that might teach us more about ours, give us more ideas. That is what the tweaking is about - to collect the best from all sides into a better experience.
The difference is Star Citizen isn't coming out.

But you look around you and find out how many people would be willing to do away with the ground completely. Practically no one, if any at all other than you.

Frankly, as I've said, if I wanted only space gameplay I'd just play X, Starmade, Blockade Runner, etc - any of the up and coming sci fi sims out there. We already have Minecraft itself on the table, it's not like anything needs to be figured out on that end save for the transition between that and space.

edit: Also, Futurecraft's engine doesn't exist in any tangible form. On that basis alone Starmade has the edge.
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PostSubject: Re: Overdue Enlightenment   Sat Aug 10, 2013 4:40 pm

Alright Tiel guess from now on you make the ground for us Razz, actually don't get me wrong I wont mind if you do the ground for me just I wont do the ground for you. If you have a code ready on your hands I doubt anyone will deny you.


Also it seems you miss the point completely - the question is not if something is in or out, but what's made first and what's made later, and on that matter most agreed on space or "ALL THING FUTURE" which I already told you is nit a valid answer, like saying "alright lets cut out all the things but everything !" (that will surely make us progress forward Razz )
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PostSubject: Re: Overdue Enlightenment   Sat Aug 10, 2013 5:14 pm

Iv121 wrote:
"ALL THING FUTURE"
I don't see how this has any bearing on this discussion. I haven't said that's the goal of the mod, yet you manufacture this as my viewpoint in an attempt to bolster your own perspective on things. This is childish and has no place in a serious conversation.

Also, my ability to 'make' anything has nothing to do with what we're talking about. You're not contributing anything, either - this is just tossing around ideas.
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PostSubject: Re: Overdue Enlightenment   Sat Aug 10, 2013 5:26 pm

What if someone does not particulary know how to code, but has the whole idea in full detail in mind? If all variables are given it should be rather easy to implement it. At least one could assume that...

And Iv, exactly as Tiel said, if you want a game purely based on space, play a space sim. But we are not SpaceCraft nor BattleshipCraft, but FutureCraft. And tell me what, if we are not expected to go "all things futuristic", who is?
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PostSubject: Re: Overdue Enlightenment   Sat Aug 10, 2013 5:39 pm

As fr0st said, we have to pick as choose. We can't appease anyone, and shouldn't even think of trying to. As of right now it looks to me like the combat side of the mod will be larger, based on interest levels. There will probably be expansions to most everything, but we don't need 5 tiers of farming devices, just one or two. The people who will do things like farm or make cities will be vastly outnumbered by people who PvP, and the mod should reflect that. If that changes, the mod can adjust.
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