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Avenger_7
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PostSubject: Re: Star Wars Thread   Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:15 am

MISLEADING BIRD wrote:
Having half your empire trying to depose you because of your actions is not what I'd call 'galactic peace'. That was not his goal.

The New Republic had more or less an equivalent fleet to the Imperial Navy and a practically unified state, but they got caught with their pants down which splintered it all. The only way Palpatine could have kept order through the crisis was to possess his military. Did I mention he did that, like, 100% of the time? Even so, really, the only reason the NR won at all was because of the Jedi and Zonama Zekot. The fearless deeds and reputed honor of the Order pretty much fractured the Vong before Zekot just swept up its babies and boogied out.

Had the Emperor been in charge still, the Vong would have mercilessly torn through his regime as a unified race, not stopping until the last civilian was enslaved. Zekot wouldn't save them either, because the Empire was practically torturing the damn planet. If anything, it'd have been encouraging the Yuuzhan to go ahead and wipe everything out.

The New Republic did not take the necessary steps to counter the invasion, as they were frozen by political infighting. I'm not entirely sure, but I'm pretty sure that they also had a smaller military than the empire at its peak. I'll leave that one up to LJS to decide, but the empire would have been much better equipped to handle the Vong.
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PostSubject: Re: Star Wars Thread   Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:37 am

The Empire would have been wiped out by the Vong. The Yuuzhan made mincemeat of ISDs, as I said above, but what you seem to be avoiding, the only reason the NR survived was because of Zonama Zekot.
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PostSubject: Re: Star Wars Thread   Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:24 am

MISLEADING BIRD wrote:
The Empire would have been wiped out by the Vong. The Yuuzhan made mincemeat of ISDs, as I said above, but what you seem to be avoiding, the only reason the NR survived was because of Zonama Zekot.
They made mincemeat of A FEW AT A TIME. My argument was that the empire could have won on its own, or at least fared much better, largely because of their stronger initial responses. They also would have had the Death Star, Tarkin, Eclipses and the Galaxy Gun to wipe out the larger Vong ships with ease.

There was also some indication (I can't remember where) that Palpatine knew that there was SOMETHING extragalactic coming his way, and wanted to make sure it didn't threaten his dominion. That also explains some of his reasoning behind the sabotage of Outbound Flight (aside from killing Jedi that would likely have disappeared anyways), to keep the Republic from panicking.
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PostSubject: Re: Star Wars Thread   Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:31 am

Avenger_7 wrote:
MISLEADING BIRD wrote:
The Empire would have been wiped out by the Vong. The Yuuzhan made mincemeat of ISDs, as I said above, but what you seem to be avoiding, the only reason the NR survived was because of Zonama Zekot.
They made mincemeat of A FEW AT A TIME. My argument was that the empire could have won on its own, or at least fared much better, largely because of their stronger initial responses. They also would have had the Death Star, Tarkin, Eclipses and the Galaxy Gun to wipe out the larger Vong ships with ease.

There was also some indication (I can't remember where) that Palpatine knew that there was SOMETHING extragalactic coming his way, and wanted to make sure it didn't threaten his dominion. That also explains some of his reasoning behind the sabotage of Outbound Flight (aside from killing Jedi that would likely have disappeared anyways), to keep the Republic from panicking.

I'm operating on the scenario that the Empire manages to win the Battle of Endor, that's the only one that makes sense. In this case, there would be no egomaniac Tarkin or DS1, just a handful of Executors and the DS2.

Now, I'd like to point out that it took the sacrifice of an entire SSD to only delay a Yuuzhan Vong fleet by kamikazing into one of their dreadnoughts. And if you know anything about warfare, there aren't exactly going to be many ships consolidated into one place until its too late. Ergo, the Yuuzhan Vong would tear through their perimeter like a knife through butter and then take on Coruscant, which, while having a strong defending fleet, to be generous, maybe 2 SSDs in orbit, the Vong would still manage to take out Palpatine and pretty much leaving the surviving Imps dazed and confused. From there, it'd be mop up for them.

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PostSubject: Re: Star Wars Thread   Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:45 pm

MISLEADING BIRD wrote:
Avenger_7 wrote:
MISLEADING BIRD wrote:
The Empire would have been wiped out by the Vong. The Yuuzhan made mincemeat of ISDs, as I said above, but what you seem to be avoiding, the only reason the NR survived was because of Zonama Zekot.
They made mincemeat of A FEW AT A TIME. My argument was that the empire could have won on its own, or at least fared much better, largely because of their stronger initial responses. They also would have had the Death Star, Tarkin, Eclipses and the Galaxy Gun to wipe out the larger Vong ships with ease.

There was also some indication (I can't remember where) that Palpatine knew that there was SOMETHING extragalactic coming his way, and wanted to make sure it didn't threaten his dominion. That also explains some of his reasoning behind the sabotage of Outbound Flight (aside from killing Jedi that would likely have disappeared anyways), to keep the Republic from panicking.

I'm operating on the scenario that the Empire manages to win the Battle of Endor, that's the only one that makes sense. In this case, there would be no egomaniac Tarkin or DS1, just a handful of Executors and the DS2.

Now, I'd like to point out that it took the sacrifice of an entire SSD to only delay a Yuuzhan Vong fleet by kamikazing into one of their dreadnoughts. And if you know anything about warfare, there aren't exactly going to be many ships consolidated into one place until its too late. Ergo, the Yuuzhan Vong would tear through their perimeter like a knife through butter and then take on Coruscant, which, while having a strong defending fleet, to be generous, maybe 2 SSDs in orbit, the Vong would still manage to take out Palpatine and pretty much leaving the surviving Imps dazed and confused. From there, it'd be mop up for them.
I don't know who would win. The Empire would have some advantages over the NR. They wouldn't have nearly the same problems with political infighting that caused so much trouble in the early years of the war, and they really did have a bigger navy. However, I think their biggest advantage would be Thrawn. He would eat the Yuuzhan Vong.

I don't think Palpatine knew there was anything coming. Thrawn knew, though.

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PostSubject: Re: Star Wars Thread   Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:50 pm

New Republic officers and fleets were much more skilled and coordinated. With the support of the Hapes Consortium and Imperial Remnant I have the utmost confidence their total military effectiveness exceeded the Empire's.
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PostSubject: Re: Star Wars Thread   Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:18 pm

MISLEADING BIRD wrote:
New Republic officers and fleets were much more skilled and coordinated. With the support of the Hapes Consortium and Imperial Remnant I have the utmost confidence their total military effectiveness exceeded the Empire's.
If the Empire had won at Endor, there wouldn't be an Imperial Remnant, because it would still be the Empire. And Hapes didn't do much after Fondor. Battle Dragons are great ships, but there just weren't enough of them in the war to make much difference. I can't find any actual numbers for the New Republic Defense Fleet, but it can't be huge. At the time of the Black Fleet Crisis, about 10 years before the YVW, the Fifth Battle Group was composed of 220 ships. I know that there were only five Battle Groups at that time, and I think there were still 5 during the YVW. They are unlikely to have grown much during that time, because there hadn't been any large wars. Fleets tend to shrink in times of relative peace. Assuming the other Battle Groups were about the same size as the Fifth, we get an approximate size of the NRDF at the beginning of the war - 1,100 warships. Most of these were smaller than an Imperial-class Star Destroyer, and many of the larger vessels were captured Imperial ships. It's hard to get exact numbers for the Imperial Navy, too, but Wookieepedia says "millions", including 25,000 ImpStars. Even the Imperial Remnant, a comparatively tiny government, had "thousands" of warships, including 200 ImpStars. So the Imperial fleet was definitely bigger, by a lot.

Now we have the whole skills thing. The Imperials have a reputation of total incompetence, and I'm not sure why. I suppose it all comes from stormtroopers famously being bad shots, but I have no idea why that seems to have been applied to the Empire as a whole. The Imperial Navy was something to be feared throughout the galaxy, and even the Stormtrooper Corps being incompetent doesn't hold true anywhere in the Expanded Universe. It should be remembered that much of the Alliance navy high command was trained at the Imperial Academy, like Crix Madine or Jan Dodonna. The Rebellion had a few brilliant commanders, like Gial Ackbar and Garm Bel Iblis, but so did the Empire. They had Gilad Pellaeon and Natasi Daala, as well as Thrawn, who is arguably the greatest tactician of all time. In general, Imperial Navy officers were some of the best in the galaxy.

So yeah, I don't think it can be argued that the New Republic Defense Force is either bigger or better than the Imperial Navy, even if you don't count things like the Death Stars, World Devastators, or Galaxy Gun.

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PostSubject: Re: Star Wars Thread   Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:40 pm

Venators are Star Destroyers.
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PostSubject: Re: Star Wars Thread   Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:01 pm

Necrooooooo.
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PostSubject: Re: Star Wars Thread   Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:26 pm

This discussion was derailing a thread in the RP subforum. Hence, brought it to the correct thread.
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PostSubject: Re: Star Wars Thread   Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:08 pm

Wow, first time something derailing a topic HAD a topic.
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PostSubject: Re: Star Wars Thread   Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:05 pm

Award.
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