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 StarCraft 2 North America Finals

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PostSubject: Re: StarCraft 2 North America Finals   Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:46 am

The tactical possibilities of starcraft are limited in comparison to CoH. Even the position of your tank matters - it's rear armor is weaker than the front one.

Also tell me, doesn't it eventually turn into a clash of two big blobs ?
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PostSubject: Re: StarCraft 2 North America Finals   Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:19 am

Iv121 wrote:
The tactical possibilities of starcraft are limited in comparison to CoH. Even the position of your tank matters - it's rear armor is weaker than the front one.

Also tell me, doesn't it eventually turn into a clash of two big blobs ?

Tank armor in SC doesn't matter; it's assumed they layer it on the same thickness everywhere.

It only turns into a head on battle in bronze league, and occasionally silver. Even when it does, I usually win because I use my supporting units to inflict massive damage. Keon's pic is a good example - the Protoss player has trapped the Terran force using his Sentries, and his Colossi and Zealots are a great match for the Terran's Marauders and Marines. To avoid the ground firepower while still being effective against the Colossi, the Terran has turned his Valkyries into flyers. The Protoss player then blinked in his Stalkers to take them on. Leaving the Terran no retreat, the Protoss player has probably ended the match right there.
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PostSubject: Re: StarCraft 2 North America Finals   Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:58 am

This picture also shows that it's all about blobs Razz .

Man you can't beat the level of tacticness CoH has , CoH 2 will have limited LOS (Means bushes and stuff actually limit your view) , different ice thickness (you can collapse the ice by driving too heavy stuff on it or by blowing it up, useful trick for enemy mortars), true snow (units get slowed in it and leave traits that can be detected by your scouting units), your units can freeze to death on the map and did I say that every single stuff there is breakable ?
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PostSubject: Re: StarCraft 2 North America Finals   Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:45 am

Iv121 wrote:
This picture also shows that it's all about blobs Razz .

Man you can't beat the level of tacticness CoH has , CoH 2 will have limited LOS (Means bushes and stuff actually limit your view) , different ice thickness (you can collapse the ice by driving too heavy stuff on it or by blowing it up, useful trick for enemy mortars), true snow (units get slowed in it and leave traits that can be detected by your scouting units), your units can freeze to death on the map and did I say that every single stuff there is breakable ?

Oh come on, surely you can come up with a better argument? I'm with you on this one, but you're using the wrong logic to fight the opposition.

How about that all units take cover, there are over 100 UNIQUE units in the game that act differently in combat scenarios, oh, and everything's not decided by rock paper scissors? And, you know, COH actually has collision models Razz

The fact that the devs didn't implement proper collision can mean either Blizzard's hyper lazy or they thought it would be too resource-heavy, further proof that SCII was designed to just have blobs of units which decide matches in one big battle, as opposed to any form of proper strategy. In CoH using those tactics will get your troops and (presumably) you murdered, as it should.

In any case this is like comparing mangoes and pears (Or was it oranges and bananas..?). Starcraft was designed to be a fast paced and have massive unit battles; the tactics one can use are limited to accommodate the aforementioned out of simplicity. CoH, on the other hand, was made to be as realistic as possible without sacrificing recreative value. This makes it a bigger pain in the arse to play right as opposed to, say, Sins of a Solar Empire, but it makes victory all the more satisfying after one has conquered the learning curve.
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PostSubject: Re: StarCraft 2 North America Finals   Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:27 pm

Fili wrote:
Iv121 wrote:
This picture also shows that it's all about blobs Razz .

Man you can't beat the level of tacticness CoH has , CoH 2 will have limited LOS (Means bushes and stuff actually limit your view) , different ice thickness (you can collapse the ice by driving too heavy stuff on it or by blowing it up, useful trick for enemy mortars), true snow (units get slowed in it and leave traits that can be detected by your scouting units), your units can freeze to death on the map and did I say that every single stuff there is breakable ?

Oh come on, surely you can come up with a better argument? I'm with you on this one, but you're using the wrong logic to fight the opposition.

How about that all units take cover, there are over 100 UNIQUE units in the game that act differently in combat scenarios, oh, and everything's not decided by rock paper scissors? And, you know, COH actually has collision models Razz

The fact that the devs didn't implement proper collision can mean either Blizzard's hyper lazy or they thought it would be too resource-heavy, further proof that SCII was designed to just have blobs of units which decide matches in one big battle, as opposed to any form of proper strategy. In CoH using those tactics will get your troops and (presumably) you murdered, as it should.

In any case this is like comparing mangoes and pears (Or was it oranges and bananas..?). Starcraft was designed to be a fast paced and have massive unit battles; the tactics one can use are limited to accommodate the aforementioned out of simplicity. CoH, on the other hand, was made to be as realistic as possible without sacrificing recreative value. This makes it a bigger pain in the arse to play right as opposed to, say, Sins of a Solar Empire, but it makes victory all the more satisfying after one has conquered the learning curve.

Im not quite sure what you're getting at. Unit collision has always been a pain if you try to move a large number of troops in SC. The most notorious ones are Archons, because their collision box in SC and SC:BW was huge. One thing that was done in SC2 was making allied units automatically move to avoid collision, although enemy units do not.

Starcraft has always had limited LOS, even the first game.

Finally, to reiterate e point you seem to be avoiding, tactical ability usage in SC does far more damage than a large army can. The Zerg are an exception to this rule, since they were designed to have massive amounts of units and to bury their enemies with numbers (although they are excellent ambushers due to burrowing units). That's why you don't see their support units as much as, say, nukes or psi storms.
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PostSubject: Re: StarCraft 2 North America Finals   Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:53 pm

Avenger_7 wrote:


Starcraft has always had limited LOS, even the first game.

Finally, to reiterate e point you seem to be avoiding, tactical ability usage in SC does far more damage than a large army can. The Zerg are an exception to this rule, since they were designed to have massive amounts of units and to bury their enemies with numbers (although they are excellent ambushers due to burrowing units). That's why you don't see their support units as much as, say, nukes or psi storms.

The chance you nuke a blob is relatively small. Also the LOS in SC is not limited in the way it will be in CoH 2, besides high ground being invisible there is not much to it. Also I always wandered if there is a really significant difference in SC maps. To some point you use only specific paths and not all of the map is used. In CoH for example you will have to focus on the whole map all in the same time.

actually best way to show the differences between both games is to watch a gameplay video.
Im going to warn you that in my opinion they played badly this game, making unforgivable mistakes early game. Luckily for them the enemy didn't use those as he should have ...
The key for American victory is fast play as when the Germans get their tanks victory becomes much harder.
I do want you to note how in 10:25 a small unit of 3 troops turns the tide of the battle with it's suppressive fire, while in 8:25 the same unit type gets easily destroyed when flanked. This is what CoH is about, small deeds that turn the tide of the battle.



Also note that there are no really big blobs and the small blobs get pushed around with arti and HMGs.
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PostSubject: Re: StarCraft 2 North America Finals   Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:15 pm

Admittedly it was a long time ago, but last time I checked, starcraft 2's rock paper scissors was something like Terrans are rock, Protoss are scissors and zerg are mushroom unless played by a pro korean.

The terran MMM ( that's Marine, Marauder, Medicav ) combo straight up owned any other early game infantry.
EMP alone counters the entire protoss race, and the zerg's entire arsenal has to avoid the Terran mech force ( that's right, the zerg's battle tactic against a terran mech is to run in the other direction )

Not to mention thanks to their reactors, Terrans can now mass produce units faster than Zerg can.
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PostSubject: Re: StarCraft 2 North America Finals   Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:44 pm

It sounds like a VERY long time ago. The Terran tactic you refer to is called a 'bio-ball', and it's the main Terran tactic in early to mid game. However, it gets crushed by zealots(with charge), colossi, high Templar and anything with burrow/splash damage. A good Zerg player can also fill his supply cap up by the 10 minute mark, giving him an awesomely massive force. Having multiple hatcheries really helps.

CoH seems like it's much easier to micro in than SC. That would understandably cause you to think it's more tactical as it means lower level players won't just try to apply sledgehammer tactics, but overall it seems like a much easier game to play. It also funnels movement into key points on the map, a mechanic that SC avoids with cliff jumping units and dropships. I didn't once see a trap/surround/kill tactic or a single stutterstep. I admit that different games have different tactics, but I honestly think that the micro gameplay is simpler.
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PostSubject: Re: StarCraft 2 North America Finals   Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:48 pm

Yeah.

And you ask why I play Protoss?

Cause Zerg is gross and terran is ugly and they smoke.

THAT'S RIGHT! I CHOSE MY RACE NOT BY WHICH IS BEST, BUT BY RULE OF COOL! HEAR ME BLIZZARD?



@avenger.

I hate micro.


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PostSubject: Re: StarCraft 2 North America Finals   Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:53 pm

Dori wrote:
Yeah.

And you ask why I play Protoss?

Cause Zerg is gross and terran is ugly and they smoke.

THAT'S RIGHT! I CHOSE MY RACE NOT BY WHICH IS BEST, BUT BY RULE OF COOL! HEAR ME BLIZZARD?



@avenger.

I hate micro.


Bronze or silver league?
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PostSubject: Re: StarCraft 2 North America Finals   Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:28 pm

Avenger_7 wrote:
Dori wrote:
Yeah.

And you ask why I play Protoss?

Cause Zerg is gross and terran is ugly and they smoke.

THAT'S RIGHT! I CHOSE MY RACE NOT BY WHICH IS BEST, BUT BY RULE OF COOL! HEAR ME BLIZZARD?



@avenger.

I hate micro.


Bronze or silver league?

Bronze I would assume, I haven't played in 3 months.

Anyways, I also hate the leauges. I mean, I really don't have the time to get 31957047598 points or whatever to move up from silver (Yes, I once got in silver. I did this by pretending to be sick for a week. I never did again, cause that was just moronic) to gold.

Another problem; you can just ladder up by playing more games. Doesn't matter about skill.

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You know, I was thinking we should have a 3D crafting grid for complex recipes, but Kielaran is right: why have three dimensions when you can have six? Truly I don't know how we ever got by with a measly two.


Mackeroth? wrote:
Now, if Fr0stbyte wrote that, someone would make a sig, guaranteed. So what are you going to do now?
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PostSubject: Re: StarCraft 2 North America Finals   Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:57 am

Avenger_7 wrote:

CoH seems like it's much easier to micro in than SC. That would understandably cause you to think it's more tactical as it means lower level players won't just try to apply sledgehammer tactics, but overall it seems like a much easier game to play. It also funnels movement into key points on the map, a mechanic that SC avoids with cliff jumping units and dropships. I didn't once see a trap/surround/kill tactic or a single stutterstep. I admit that different games have different tactics, but I honestly think that the micro gameplay is simpler.

I already said that mach was played terribly. You do not just ambush a target with a blob like you do in starcraft , instead it's a game about building defences and collapsing them. I guess I need a better example for this:

This shows more defensive gameplay. They do not make so many mistakes besides late responding for threats . I would have by that time mortars countering the enemy ones from the Island and probably make a push from the totally undefended right bridge.




Micro management is important here, and micro managing a whole strike is difficult.

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PostSubject: Re: StarCraft 2 North America Finals   Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:32 pm

Dori wrote:
Avenger_7 wrote:
Dori wrote:
Yeah.

And you ask why I play Protoss?

Cause Zerg is gross and terran is ugly and they smoke.

THAT'S RIGHT! I CHOSE MY RACE NOT BY WHICH IS BEST, BUT BY RULE OF COOL! HEAR ME BLIZZARD?



@avenger.

I hate micro.


Bronze or silver league?

Bronze I would assume, I haven't played in 3 months.

Anyways, I also hate the leauges. I mean, I really don't have the time to get 31957047598 points or whatever to move up from silver (Yes, I once got in silver. I did this by pretending to be sick for a week. I never did again, cause that was just moronic) to gold.

Another problem; you can just ladder up by playing more games. Doesn't matter about skill.

If you aren't winning you don't get the points to rank up. Even still, I used to be in the top 3 silver 1v1 for months before I finally got put into gold.
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PostSubject: Re: StarCraft 2 North America Finals   Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:47 pm

Iv121 wrote:
Avenger_7 wrote:

CoH seems like it's much easier to micro in than SC. That would understandably cause you to think it's more tactical as it means lower level players won't just try to apply sledgehammer tactics, but overall it seems like a much easier game to play. It also funnels movement into key points on the map, a mechanic that SC avoids with cliff jumping units and dropships. I didn't once see a trap/surround/kill tactic or a single stutterstep. I admit that different games have different tactics, but I honestly think that the micro gameplay is simpler.

I already said that mach was played terribly. You do not just ambush a target with a blob like you do in starcraft , instead it's a game about building defences and collapsing them. I guess I need a better example for this:

This shows more defensive gameplay. They do not make so many mistakes besides late responding for threats . I would have by that time mortars countering the enemy ones from the Island and probably make a push from the totally undefended right bridge.




Micro management is important here, and micro managing a whole strike is difficult.

Even still, here's a rundown of commonly used abilities:

CoH:set up/take down, barrage, medic, grab gun, supress, run like a sissy.

SC2:cloak, teleport, cliff jump, warp in, transform, barrage, set up/take down, stim pack, heal, force field, storm, nuke, parasite, burrow, and several others I don't want to mention.

Retreating:

CoH: pack up and run

SC2: tactical retreat. Try to stay out of range while still firing at the enemy.

Ambushes:

CoH: OH SHIT AN AMBUSH RRRUUUUUNN!!1!!1!!!!

SC2: OH SHIT WE'RE TRA-<transmission terminated> or, in the case of the Zerg, OH SHIT THEY'RE EVERYWHERE! WE'RE SURROUN-<transmission terminated>

Rule 11 seems to apply.
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PostSubject: Re: StarCraft 2 North America Finals   Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:20 pm


I can also say: SC: "Oh S*** HUGE BIO BLOB EARLY GAME ... GG "
CoH: "Huge infantry blob ?" *HMG loading sound*

As for your list:

CoH abilities: Cloak , teleport (airborne drop), transform (Half-track into a freaking arti monster ? CHECK !) ,barrage in thousands of different forms, fake barrages, set up, take down, tons of structures (From mines to wires to freakin howitzers and 88 mm, anything your heart can wish), storm and other buffs for units, nuke (Ever saw a falling V1 ? SC nuke gets pwned just for the terrifying sound Razz ) . Even while being futuristic and unlimited by RL bounds SC couldn't offer a lot of new abilities while the structure and border system alone offers more tactical opportunities and depth than anything else. Also there is nothing wrong in running away when needed. Tactical retreat is also possible here and even in more depth with a smoke barrage covering your back or an arti strike. You'll have hard time proving SC is CoH. SC has it's own advantages and should not try to be like CoH as it will fail hardly and loose it's own qualities.
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PostSubject: Re: StarCraft 2 North America Finals   Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:53 pm

Iv121 wrote:

I can also say: SC: "Oh S*** HUGE BIO BLOB EARLY GAME ... GG "
CoH: "Huge infantry blob ?" *HMG loading sound*

As for your list:

CoH abilities: Cloak , teleport (airborne drop), transform (Half-track into a freaking arti monster ? CHECK !) ,barrage in thousands of different forms, fake barrages, set up, take down, tons of structures (From mines to wires to freakin howitzers and 88 mm, anything your heart can wish), storm and other buffs for units, nuke (Ever saw a falling V1 ? SC nuke gets pwned just for the terrifying sound Razz ) . Even while being futuristic and unlimited by RL bounds SC couldn't offer a lot of new abilities while the structure and border system alone offers more tactical opportunities and depth than anything else. Also there is nothing wrong in running away when needed. Tactical retreat is also possible here and even in more depth with a smoke barrage covering your back or an arti strike. You'll have hard time proving SC is CoH. SC has it's own advantages and should not try to be like CoH as it will fail hardly and loose it's own qualities.

Buildings aren't abilities. I also (used only the most common, but the full list goes on for pages) lumped some general ones together, so some cleanup would be in order here as well. The only time I actually run away in SC is to lure an enemy into a storm/wall combo or a nuclear strike, both of which can be accessed by about 5-7 minutes time. The rest of the time I micro my units so the other guy gets butthurt beyond reason if he chases me.

Also, infantry blobs in SC are easy to counter with the same or even fewer resources. Your whole argument seems to be "there are bigger armies, therefore not tactical," which isn't true at all.
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PostSubject: Re: StarCraft 2 North America Finals   Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:01 pm

You have a counter argument ? You insist SC is CoH ?
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PostSubject: Re: StarCraft 2 North America Finals   Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:03 pm

Iv121 wrote:
You have a counter argument ? You insist SC is CoH ?

I insist that it's more tactical if you're playing properly.
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PostSubject: Re: StarCraft 2 North America Finals   Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:04 pm

Also, I got myself to platinum league back when it was the second best league by rushing to dark templars and making four of them, sneaking them into the enemy base ( terran players always went for MMM so they never had defenses for it ) and destroying the command center / nexus / hatchery, immediately crushing the enemy economy and thus winning the game.
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PostSubject: Re: StarCraft 2 North America Finals   Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:18 pm

Pat Best wrote:
Also, I got myself to platinum league back when it was the second best league by rushing to dark templars and making four of them, sneaking them into the enemy base ( terran players always went for MMM so they never had defenses for it ) and destroying the command center / nexus / hatchery, immediately crushing the enemy economy and thus winning the game.

Yup.

Exactly this. All you have to do is get a rush build that works more than 50% of the time.

I, for example, can beat almost all gold by DT rushing, Toss players by 4gating or even DT rushing, and zerg players by stalker collossus rushing, with (GUESS WHAT?) DT rushing as a good alternative.

Most games I can have my cloaked DTs out before a hard tech to mobile defense can get set up. Even with Terran with their scan, no problem, I send the DTs in one by one, and when they are out I send in a new wave.

That's the problem with Starcraft. There is no incentive to use other strategies. One works, maybe 3 at high levels. At max, you have 3 to 5 strategies, with what to get to counter a specific build just nitpicking. Plus, with the 4gate coming out at 7 minutes for a bad one, it is better to win 70 % of the time with 4gates then always win with a 40 minute strategy.

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You know, I was thinking we should have a 3D crafting grid for complex recipes, but Kielaran is right: why have three dimensions when you can have six? Truly I don't know how we ever got by with a measly two.


Mackeroth? wrote:
Now, if Fr0stbyte wrote that, someone would make a sig, guaranteed. So what are you going to do now?
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PostSubject: Re: StarCraft 2 North America Finals   Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:39 pm

Keon wrote:
Pat Best wrote:
Also, I got myself to platinum league back when it was the second best league by rushing to dark templars and making four of them, sneaking them into the enemy base ( terran players always went for MMM so they never had defenses for it ) and destroying the command center / nexus / hatchery, immediately crushing the enemy economy and thus winning the game.

Yup.

Exactly this. All you have to do is get a rush build that works more than 50% of the time.

I, for example, can beat almost all gold by DT rushing, Toss players by 4gating or even DT rushing, and zerg players by stalker collossus rushing, with (GUESS WHAT?) DT rushing as a good alternative.

Most games I can have my cloaked DTs out before a hard tech to mobile defense can get set up. Even with Terran with their scan, no problem, I send the DTs in one by one, and when they are out I send in a new wave.

That's the problem with Starcraft. There is no incentive to use other strategies. One works, maybe 3 at high levels. At max, you have 3 to 5 strategies, with what to get to counter a specific build just nitpicking. Plus, with the 4gate coming out at 7 minutes for a bad one, it is better to win 70 % of the time with 4gates then always win with a 40 minute strategy.

You could always just send your Dark Templars at the scanning addon forget what its called. it only has a couple hundred Hp, it'll be dead before the terran player realises what's happening unless korean pro.
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PostSubject: Re: StarCraft 2 North America Finals   Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:20 pm

Pat Best wrote:
Keon wrote:
Pat Best wrote:
Also, I got myself to platinum league back when it was the second best league by rushing to dark templars and making four of them, sneaking them into the enemy base ( terran players always went for MMM so they never had defenses for it ) and destroying the command center / nexus / hatchery, immediately crushing the enemy economy and thus winning the game.

Yup.

Exactly this. All you have to do is get a rush build that works more than 50% of the time.

I, for example, can beat almost all gold by DT rushing, Toss players by 4gating or even DT rushing, and zerg players by stalker collossus rushing, with (GUESS WHAT?) DT rushing as a good alternative.

Most games I can have my cloaked DTs out before a hard tech to mobile defense can get set up. Even with Terran with their scan, no problem, I send the DTs in one by one, and when they are out I send in a new wave.

That's the problem with Starcraft. There is no incentive to use other strategies. One works, maybe 3 at high levels. At max, you have 3 to 5 strategies, with what to get to counter a specific build just nitpicking. Plus, with the 4gate coming out at 7 minutes for a bad one, it is better to win 70 % of the time with 4gates then always win with a 40 minute strategy.

You could always just send your Dark Templars at the scanning addon forget what its called. it only has a couple hundred Hp, it'll be dead before the terran player realises what's happening unless korean pro.

It's not an addon, it's their base. But yeah. You can usually do that.

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fr0stbyte124 wrote:
You know, I was thinking we should have a 3D crafting grid for complex recipes, but Kielaran is right: why have three dimensions when you can have six? Truly I don't know how we ever got by with a measly two.


Mackeroth? wrote:
Now, if Fr0stbyte wrote that, someone would make a sig, guaranteed. So what are you going to do now?
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